Breed Standard Mistakes in the smooth breed standard

Mistakes in the smooth breed standard

Dianne: Smooth Collie Standard "Appears as gifted with intelligence, alertness and activity. Stands with dignity governed by perfect anatomical formation, with no part out of proportion to whole, giving appearance of working ability." In France, "giving appearance of working ability" has been completely missed from their translation of the FCI standard. In Belgium, it is claimed that the rough and smooth standards are identical. http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/132 http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/133 Please check the standards as issued by the British Kennel Club with those issued in your country and report if they are translated correctly or incorrectly. I think this is very important - there are five differences between the rough and smooth collie standards - the key one is "giving appearance of working ability" and may have helped the smooth to remain a more rustic and less fearful dog who moves well.

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Jack Mack: In german it is translated like this in a separate sentence: Insgesamt erscheint er fhig zum Arbeiten. I would translate it like this: Altogether he appears to be able to do work.

Roberta Semenzato: in the Italian translation we read: Deve dare l'impressione di un cane capace di lavorare - that you can read as - giving appearance of working ability so, it's OK for us

JT: In estonian it is: "Rahulikult seistes vrikas ja tiusliku kehaehitusega, mis vljendab tvimet". And it means - while standing calmly it looks dignified and with perfect anatomy, what gives an expression of ability to work. So in estonian it is noted.

Spiritwind: Here is a link to the AKC Collie breed standard: AKC Collie breed standard The standard for roughs and smooths are exactly the same, except for coat.

Dianne: Hello to everyone, and thanks for your replies so far. JT from Estonia writes: In estonian it is: "Rahulikult seistes vrikas ja tiusliku kehaehitusega, mis vljendab tvimet". And it means - while standing calmly it looks dignified and with perfect anatomy, what gives an expression of ability to work. So in estonian it is noted. My husband is Estonian and we were married in Helsinki were "rauhu" has a similar meaning to "rahulikult" - as you will see below, the smooth collie standard does not include words which can be translated as calm or peaceful. General Appearance Smooth collie Appears as gifted with intelligence, alertness and activity. Stands with dignity governed by perfect anatomical formation, with no part out of proportion, giving appearance of working capability. Compare with the rough collie standard: General Appearance Rough collie Appears as dog of great beauty, standing with impassive dignity, with no part out of proportion to whole. I wonder whether we are going to find other mistakes in the translations of the smooth standard. The AKC collie standards are quite different from the British ones. It is worth a look as some people prefer this standard as a description of the collie. Dianne

Spiritwind: Here is part of the AKC standard (both rough and smooth): The Collie is a lithe, strong, responsive, active dog, carrying no useless timber, standing naturally straight and firm. The deep, moderately wide chest shows strength, the sloping shoulders and well-bent hocks indicate speed and grace, and the face shows high intelligence. The Collie presents an impressive, proud picture of true balance, each part being in harmonious proportion to every other part and to the whole. Except for the technical description that is essential to this Standard and without which no Standard for the guidance of breeders and judges is adequate, it could be stated simply that no part of the Collie ever seems to be out of proportion to any other part. Timidity, frailness, sullenness, viciousness, lack of animation, cumbersome appearance and lack of over-all balance impair the general character. What I found interesting in the FCI standards was, that at the bottom of the page the rough standard was last updated January 2009. The smooth standard it says was last updated in September 2000. Just curious what was recently changed or added to the rough standard? The most recent update to the AKC standard was in May 1977 so its been a while since the standard was changed, and I believe at that time the only thing that was added was adding color headed whites as an allowed color. (I could be wrong, but I think that is the only thing that was added). Before that, according to the Collie Club of America website the last change was done in 1950. However the AKC cannot change make changes to the Collie standard, only the Collie Club of America can do that. There is currently a big debate in the US as to whether or not they should add Sable Merles to the breed standard, since they are already shown and finished - the #1 smooth in the country right now is a sable merle. The Canadian standard already allows sable merles.

Dianne: Thanks Spiritwind for this information - isn't the AKC standard terrific - great use of language to give a description of this wonderful dog? I believe that the collie standard is again under discussion in Britain - I wonder what they will come up with - when I asked an English breeder, the retort was - NOT MUCH!!!!!

Spiritwind: I really don't understand why all the changes to the standard is done? The roughs in Europe today are NOTHING like they used to be. They look completely different, not to mention the HUGE coats that do not even fit the dog. I could not EVER deal with a rough with that much coat! I often think they change the rough standard so much just to match what the roughs look like now. This is a discussion from a rough collie forum I go to, that I think you all might find interesting. This was from sometime last year, but there are many good links to check out on this forum with old historical pictures of what rough collies USED to look like many years ago. The changing rough collie

Uruk: In Slovenian language it says * ...in daje vtis dobrega delovnega psa * wich can be translated as * gives the impression of a good working dog * So, the standard description is ok, the only problem is, that we have only 2 smooths registered in Slovenia ( besides, I am living in Greece for the time being... )

Dianne: Thanks, Spiritwind, for the link. The information is telling. I hope many smooth breeders will read it. Although it applies to the rough collie, we smooth breeders should read it and ask, "Are we being careful enough to produce smooths who still fulfill the standard?" I know the smooth is much nearer to his origins than the rough, but perhaps we are also going down the slippery slope. I see dogs of "greyhoundy" type (tucked up) and with not enough bone winning prizes in the smooth world. Judges, (most of whom know little about the smooth) criticise our dogs for not having enough stop, but the collie standard requires a slight stop. One rough breeder told me that the rough in France has so much stop that it is now more like a chow or nordic dog than a collie. We are also criticised for having dogs with eyes that are too open - I hope the smooth will not be bred to have eyes that appear as narrow slits. I apologise to the many judges who have taken the trouble to study the differences between the rough and smooth standard. The nordic smooth, a very elegant model, is distancing itself, in some ways, from its British origins and the British type is now largely influenced by this model through Nordic imports - my own Sadie is half Nordic, half British, and of course, her puppies have been influenced by the northern model. I know that breeders in Finland, Sweden, and Norway, Estonia and Russia, have the standard at heart. An Estonian dog, Milli Miller Viisikas Virginia, with Finnish origins won Crufts this year, and dogs from Sandcastles have also won Crufts. So far, most people would agree that the slight change does not deviate from the standard. But, I hope that the ignorance of some judges in European countries, who prize types which resemble the modern rough or stray too far from the ideal of the collie as a working dog, will not change the smooth collie. According to the rough collie forum in your link, this is what has happened to the rough: judges, prizing certain types, have had a huge influence on the understanding and application of the standard and this has changed the aspect of the modern rough . http://collie.heavenforum.com/breed-standard-and-actual-tendencies-f10/new-types-of-collies-where-are-we-heading-to-t18.htm This is getting rather distant from our original discussion - it should, perhaps, be a separate topic altogether. I am still basically interested in mistakes in the smooth collie standard as I believe that the phrase "giving appearance of working ability" is one of the things which has saved the smooth and kept him from straying too far from his origins as a working dog. Having the ability to work is what gives our smooth his intelligence, his drive, movement, resourcefulness and his relative fearlessness (this again is a whole different topic) Lastly, if anyone wishes to check whether there have been any changes to the smooth, most of you know the site of smooth collie champions, already a part of this International Smooth Collie Database, which Fay Hutchings painstakingly created. http://foxearthcollies.co.uk/champions_gallery/

Tentola: Dianne It is very interesting looking at Cruft's winners past and present. Some of the more recent winners are of a finer type and when standing their rear pasterns are further back then the point of buttocks. What I noticed at cruft's this year was that the english bred dogs were of correct type (my opinion) but were sometimes poorly presented and handle, where as the foreign exhibits although not as correct were shown and presented expertly. Also I find Smooths in Europe are often moved at high speed which can disguise construction faults. I looked back at past Cruft's winners remembering a ring full of quality exhibits, unlike in recent years where I feel top quality is lacking. Hopefully soon we will be looking for a new Smoothie, so will now be watching different lines with renewed interest.

Dianne: Thanks for these remarks, Tentola, it could confirm what I suspect about the Nordic smooth -it seems to me that the hind legs are held like this because the thighs are longer, and therefore more bent in the stifle than those of the English model, but wonder whether this is just an impression. Never having worked in the English show scene, I can't really judge very well - I have only photos to go on. You have worked in Britain and abroad, so you really have experience of both. I think you will agree that in the past, in Britain, smooths were shown very naturally - they were not expected to stand out at the back, but that on the "continent" dogs are now shown in this extended position, which surely is very elegant, but is more suitable to gun dogs. However, needs must - we try to show our dogs as is expected of them in Europe. Rough collies, on the other hand, still stand naturally, even badly, with their hind legs too far under them. Once again, we are getting far from my original topic into one about differences between Nordic show collies and British ones, but it is all very interesting, and why not? We first met collies moving fast in the ring at Dortmund World Dog Show where we also met you for the first time. A collie from a famous Finnish breeder ran into us from behind in the ring which spoiled the way our dog moved and made her nervous about dogs behind her ever after. There is no excuse for over-running another dog if the breeder is experienced - the most natural reaction would be to take the lead if one wants to move fast. It happened to us again at Lucern, but this time it was an amateur. I think that one possible reason for moving a smooth fast is done to try to differentiate smooths from roughs many of whom move badly. Breeders want to show that the dog has thrust and drive, but maybe you are right, and this fast movement in fact disguises some faults. For example, the daisy-cutting action which is admired now could be the result of a straight shoulder - the dog has limited movement and cannot lift his leg so high and therefore moves the leg in a straight line when moving at speed.Some breeders who have dogs with high tail carriage, move them more slowly because the dog carries its tail lower at a more moderate rate. To sum up - smooths now stand and move differently - it could be because of morphological developments. Or simply more professional show techniques - another interesting topic - would someone please put this as a new topic to be discussed separately - it surely merits lots of people contributing. Finally, I'm still interested to hear about the standard in spite of the fact we have strayed so far from our subject (though of course, all this is related). How is the standard translated in your country? There are five pricipal differences between the smooth and rough standard and they are important to the smooth collie - they were put there for a reason.

Spiritwind: I asked this before, but no one replied. What are the 5 difference between the rough and smooth FCI standard? Personally I don't think the FCI standard is so different from the AKC/CKC standard that the FCI roughs should look so VERY different from the roughs in north america. I know, from being on 2 different rough collie forums, breeders in FCI contries think north american roughs are horrible.. As I've said before, I don't think they should have EVER split up the rough and smooth and made them as two separate breeds in Europe. Roughs and smooths have been bred together since t he beginning of the breed.. and I wish it would have stayed that way. I am very glad were I live, we are able to breed roughs to smooths and kept them as the same breed.

Tentola: Spiritwind Even when you were allowed to mate Rough to Smooth in UK only a few Smooth people did, but I never heard of someone using a Smooth to mate to their Rough. I agree that they should look the same apart from their coats and to be honest the majority of Roughs in Europe do not match the breed standard. I feel that the American collie is nearer the standard, although your standard for height is bigger. A large problem with many breeders in Europe is that they only see a few of your collies and like to condem them all. Like in all countries there are good and bad. We have been to the states many times, both for CC of A, and to visit breeders and the thing I like most about the American collies is the temprement. Also on the whole movement is better. We were once a show in CT and there was a bitch from Canada that was not dis simular to a European collie and when we spoke to her owner we realized that she was not being shown and her head had not been trimmed. I do find many of the American collie heads to deep, but this is sometimes due to the fact that we are not used to seeing trimmed heads. I am looking forward to next years CC of A to see if your collies have changed much over the last 5-10 years? The last time we visited Bronze Talisman was the flavour of the day, but although I liked the heads on his offspring, I was not too keen on some of the back ends and was concerned that people would start to only look at heads and forget the overall dog. A mistake I think they made in the UK in the 80's and they are still paying the price for.

Dianne: Hello Spiritwind (what a lovely name) - as Tentola says, the standard in America is identical for the rough and for the smooth apart from the coat. However, if you compare the two Kennel Club of Great Britain standards, the main difference is found under "appearance" and "temperament" and other smaller differences under forequarters (the difference lies in the pasterns), ears and body (the difference lies in the back). http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/132 rough standard http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/133 smooth standard In each case below, the smooth collie standard is first. General Appearance Appears as gifted with intelligence, alertness and activity. Stands with dignity governed by perfect anatomical formation, with no part out of proportion, giving appearance of working capability. General Appearance Appears as dog of great beauty, standing with impassive dignity, with no part out of proportion to whole. Temperament Gay and friendly, never nervous nor aggressive. Temperament Friendly disposition with no trace of nervousness or aggressiveness. A great companion dog, friendly, happy and active, good with children and other dogs. Ears Moderately large, wider at base, and placed not too close together nor too much on side of head. When in repose carried thrown back, but on alert brought forward and carried semi-erect, that is, with approximately two-thirds of ear standing erect, top third tipping forward naturally, below horizontal. Ears Small, not too close together on top of skull, nor too far apart. In repose carried thrown back, but on alert brought forward and carried semi-erect, that is, with approximately two-thirds of ear standing erect, top third tipping forward naturally, below horizontal. Forequarters Shoulders sloping and well angulated. Forelegs straight and muscular, neither in nor out at elbows, with a moderate amount of bone. Forearm somewhat fleshy, pasterns showing flexibility without weakness. Forequarters Shoulders sloping and well angulated. Forelegs straight and muscular, neither in nor out at elbows, with moderate amount of round bone. Body Slightly long compared with height, back level and firm with slight rise over loins; ribs well sprung; chest deep and fairly broad behind shoulders. Body Slightly long compared with height, back firm with a slight rise over loins; ribs well sprung, chest deep, fairly broad behind shoulders.

Spiritwind: I'm going to reply to both posts above in the same message..... First... Tentola wrote: Spiritwind Even when you were allowed to mate Rough to Smooth in UK only a few Smooth people did, but I never heard of someone using a Smooth to mate to their Rough. I agree that they should look the same apart from their coats and to be honest the majority of Roughs in Europe do not match the breed standard. I feel that the American collie is nearer the standard, although your standard for height is bigger. What I mean is, even though people didn't often breed roughs x smooths, the banning of it, to me was not a good move. Though I understand in some parts of Europe smooths are not real common. Smooths in the US aren't real common either, I mean your average pet person has NO idea what they are. You wouldn't believe some of the crazy mixes people have thought my smooths were LOL As far as the height standard, while yes the standard for height is 2 inches taller, there are still plenty of collies in the US that are under the height standard. You talked about Bronze Talisman, he produced a lot of small offspring! Dogs that would mean the FCI standard. I have a smooth tri bitch that is at the VERY most 22 inches tall - which is the top end of the height standard for FCI bitches. My rough sable bitch Amy, who has the 1 puppy now, is barely 22 inches as well. Bree, the smooth sable bitch that placed at the CCA national in April is a tiny bitch, she will likely be between 21-22" at the very most. Though I have to be honest, I do prefer my dogs to be larger, but I won't place a dog as a pet just because of height. Tentola wrote: A large problem with many breeders in Europe is that they only see a few of your collies and like to condem them all. I guess its really no different than what breeders in the US and Canada do when they see some of the European dogs. Mainly the roughs.... Tentola wrote: I do find many of the American collie heads to deep, but this is sometimes due to the fact that we are not used to seeing trimmed heads. Are you talking roughs or smooths here? Because we do not trim heads on smooths. Its not really possible. Roughs yes, and roughs in Europe, in my opinion, REALLY need head trims badly LOL Though I don't know that I agree with the deep head thing. While yes, there are lines with bad heads -- a deep head is one thing I cannot put up with!... Another thing I cannot tolerate is bad tail sets! Tentola wrote: I am looking forward to next years CC of A to see if your collies have changed much over the last 5-10 years? The last time we visited Bronze Talisman was the flavour of the day, but although I liked the heads on his offspring, I was not too keen on some of the back ends and was concerned that people would start to only look at heads and forget the overall dog. A mistake I think they made in the UK in the 80's and they are still paying the price for. I will not be going to the CC of A next year.. or more than likely won't. Its in California, which is the complete opposite side of the country (I'm on the east coast - north carolina). Bronze Talisman was over bred, in my opinion. I never bred anything directly to him, didn't care for him much, but he is behind some of my dogs, but he is several generations back. I am planning to breed my smooth bitch, Paris, if she ever decides to come in season. She'll be bred to a rough tri dog. Paris - CH Spiritwind Barely An Angel She'll be bred to: Corey - CH Blu Ridge Lookout I'm VERY much looking forward to this litter. Paris' daughter from her last litter was the one that placed at the CCA national. Corey is the sire of my singleton litter I have right now - a rough sable bitch puppy that is 3 1/2 wks old. Corey x Amy puppy Now for my reply to the 2nd post: Personally for me, from the FCI standard I see the biggest different just in the lack of words in the rough General appearance. Temperament - Rough Friendly disposition with no trace of nervousness or aggressiveness. A great companion dog, friendly, happy and active, good with children and other dogs. Temperament - Smooth Gay and friendly, never nervous nor aggressive I mean essentially it says the same thing, just in less words. Never nervous or aggressive is the key words here. Friendly and Gay and Friendly and Happy.. same thing. The most noticeable difference to me, is the ears. I think the roughs ears are to small. The only difference in the "Body" part of the standard is the word "Level" but they still say firm with a slight rise over the loins. Now this is just my interpretation of the standard, as everyone else does. Just thought it would be interesting to compare what is above with AKC standard as well: AKC General Character: The Collie is a lithe, strong, responsive, active dog, carrying no useless timber, standing naturally straight and firm. The deep, moderately wide chest shows strength, the sloping shoulders and well-bent hocks indicate speed and grace, and the face shows high intelligence. The Collie presents an impressive, proud picture of true balance, each part being in harmonious proportion to every other part and to the whole. Except for the technical description that is essential to this Standard and without which no Standard for the guidance of breeders and judges is adequate, it could be stated simply that no part of the Collie ever seems to be out of proportion to any other part. Timidity, frailness, sullenness, viciousness, lack of animation, cumbersome appearance and lack of over-all balance impair the general character. AKC Ears: The ears are in proportion to the size of the head and, if they are carried properly and unquestionably break naturally, are seldom too small. Large ears usually cannot be lifted correctly off the head, and even if lifted, they will be out of proportion to the size of the head. When in repose the ears are folded lengthwise and thrown back into the frill. On the alert they are drawn well up on the backskull and are carried about three-quarters erect, with about one-fourth of the ear tipping or breaking forward. A dog with prick ears or low ears cannot show true expression and is penalized accordingly. AKC Body: The body is firm, hard and muscular, a trifle long in proportion to the height. The ribs are well-rounded behind the well-sloped shoulders and the chest is deep, extending to the elbows. The back is strong and level, supported by powerful hips and thighs and the croup is sloped to give a well-rounded finish. The loin is powerful and slightly arched. Noticeably fat dogs, or dogs in poor flesh, or with skin disease, or with no undercoat are out of condition and are moderately penalized accordingly. AKC Legs: The forelegs are straight and muscular, with a fair amount of bone considering the size of the dog. A cumbersome appearance is undesirable. Both narrow and wide placement are penalized. The forearm is moderately fleshy and the pasterns are flexible but without weakness. The hind legs are less fleshy, muscular at the thighs, very sinewy and the hocks and stifles are well bent. A cowhocked dog or a dog with straight stifles is penalized. The comparatively small feet are approximately oval in shape. The soles are well padded and tough, and the toes are well arched and close together. When the Collie is not in motion the legs and feet are judged by allowing the dog to come to a natural stop in a standing position so that both the forelegs and the hind legs are placed well apart, with the feet extending straight forward. Excessive "posing"is undesirable.

Tentola: Spiritwind I looked at the picture of Blu ridge lookout and really like him and thought he reminds me of the Countryview dogs, so I looked at their website and really liked Blu Ridge Let it Ride. And when I looked at his pedigree I see he goes back to my favorite Smooth Ch. Kimegan Kattia and looks so much like her sire Starrs Crackerjack, who at one point Cheryl was thinking about sending to us when we lived in the UK. We saw her last year and she is still looking fab. Do you know Cheryl Kenny/Lang? I did mean the trim on the Roughs head. Also I think in Europe some Rough bitches strugle to make 20 ins. Our Rough is 22 ins with a good neck and so many people say she is too big. She is Esp & GBZ Ch. Brooklynson Estupenda Tentola and is by the Int. Brz Ch Lakefield Love is in the Air, so carries some American Lines. I think we have upset quite a few people in Spain as she is such a different type to their small fluffy stuffies! But who cares she shows and moves like a dream and we made her up in the minimum of time. Tentola

Dianne: Hello Spiritwind - I love your dog Paris. About the standards - I think that the main difference you have hardly mentioned and that is the one of the phrase "giving appearance of working ability". The rough is not required to have attributes which would make him capable of a hard day's work and to many people's minds, this has been his downfall in Europe - why does he move badly - why is he fearful? Where is his motivation and drive? Gay is not the same as friendly - it has a quite different connotation. Pasterns are also important - we see so many roughs with weak pasterns here - they are crippled by ten years of age. Firm and level are also very different. The rough stands with impassive dignity - the smooth appears as gifted with intelligence, alertness and activity. What could be more different? This is a different dog we are talking about and smooth breeders wished it so and fought hard to be allowed a standard which was different from the rough's. Dianne at Clos des Castagniers

Spiritwind: Tentola wrote: Spiritwind I looked at the picture of Blu ridge lookout and really like him and thought he reminds me of the Countryview dogs, so I looked at their website and really liked Blu Ridge Let it Ride. And when I looked at his pedigree I see he goes back to my favorite Smooth Ch. Kimegan Kattia and looks so much like her sire Starrs Crackerjack, who at one point Cheryl was thinking about sending to us when we lived in the UK. We saw her last year and she is still looking fab. Do you know Cheryl Kenny/Lang? I did mean the trim on the Roughs head. Also I think in Europe some Rough bitches strugle to make 20 ins. Our Rough is 22 ins with a good neck and so many people say she is too big. She is Esp & GBZ Ch. Brooklynson Estupenda Tentola and is by the Int. Brz Ch Lakefield Love is in the Air, so carries some American Lines. I think we have upset quite a few people in Spain as she is such a different type to their small fluffy stuffies! But who cares she shows and moves like a dream and we made her up in the minimum of time. Tentola Yes... Corey is basically half countryview and half Southland/Tartanside. I LOVE the look. I saw Corey for the first time as a 6-9 month puppy at a local specialty and LOVED him and knew I had to breed something to him, a little over a year later I did... I bred Amy, my rough sable bitch to him, and got the one rough sable bitch puppy pictured above. Beautiful puppy!! I can't wait to breed Paris to him!... Rio (Let it ride) is beautiful! He is 2x Cracker Jack. On one of the rough collie forums I go to, that is based in Europe, last year was it Crufts maybe?? That some of the people on the forum were very unhappy that the rough winner looked more American bred than European bred... I THINK it was crufts they were talking about.. and I think it was last year.. either than, or the year before..

Dianne: this is an amendment to the rough standard Collie (Rough) Gait/Movement Distinctly characteristic in this breed. A sound dog is never out at the elbow, yet moves with front feet comparatively close together. Plaiting, crossing or rolling are highly undesirable. Hindlegs from hock joint to ground when viewed from rear to be parallel but not too close; when viewed from side, action is smooth. Hindlegs powerful with plenty of drive. A reasonably long stride is desirable and should be light and appear effortless. Absolute soundness essential.