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epilepsie ?
Mabinogion: in many breeds there is epilepsie ,now i wonder ,are there smooth who have epilepsie? and yes ,what are the rules in every country for breeding? i have heard from some epilepsie in germany and finland ,but are these incidents or do you see it more often in the smooth collie?
Ответов - 31, стр:
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Godiva: I am also very interested in this subject, so I decided to make this old thread alive. I hope this subject is not a taboo for Smoothie enthusiastics because this kind of illness is quite a big problem for a single dog - bigger than CEA for example.
Mabinogion: yes ,i think so to. i heard about some smooth who got epilepsie and i was wonder how offen it is seen in our breed. i olso know that epilepsie olso is a symptom of many other kind of ilness ofcourse ,but i think it is always good to be allert of this kind of things when you breed.
Jack Mack: I do not think it is a tabu - or should be, I just do not know any smooth who had epilepsie. I have heard rumours of some very early smooth having had epilepsie but no proof. There was a litter in Finland where almost all puppies were said to have had it and were put to sleep. But we can not discuss rumours here in this forum........ From what I have heard there are also ilnesses that can be miss-interpreted to be epi ???
Alertness: Epileptic seizures are not an easy ailment to take into consideration for breeders as not all seizures are hereditary (dogs may get seizures from a bump to the head in an accident or during birth etc). There are also seizures that looks like epilectic ones but are caused by other diseases. And it is often very difficult for the veterinary to establish whether a dog's epileptic-looking seizures are hereditary or not. I've heard of some cases of (epileptic?) seizures in smooth collies, but I wouldn't say there are many. My impression is that immune deficiencies/allergies or cancer is more common among smooths than epilepsy. A dog that one suspects of having epilepsy should of course not be used for breeding. But the breed is so small genetically that I suspect it would be very difficult to avoid using any relatives for breeding alltogether, it depends how closely related they are I guess. Generally one should try to avoid line or inbreeding so as not to double the chances of getting more hereditary epileptic cases. Berit
Cinnaberry: Epilepsy is tricky thing, since similar symptoms can be caused of many things. If no other reason for seizures cannot be found, one has to be aware that it may be epilepsy -heriditary kind. "Common recommendations" are that the combination that has produced epilectic dog should not be done again and that the littermates of the sick dog should not be used.
OneWay's: Easy to say that the dogs who had epilepsy is rumours... You have epileptic dogs behind your own breeding Mabinogion, but maybe you are lucky to have healthy dogs so far. One breeder has written about the dogs from her breeding that had epilepsy, litter of 8 puppies and as I can see 5 of the have epilepsy, a rumour? close relativs to these dogs are behind many dogs today. I know about more dogs who had epilepsy, my friend had one and another dog in the same litter had ep, from that litter was a male used... and is behind lots of dogs. A breeder imported dogs from UK, many years ago - they had ep, their littermate was used in Germany and is now behind one dog that I just saw was epileptic... 2 of the dogs I know had ep here in Sweden born in the early -80 got it when the where around 1 years old, these dogs where put to sleep, but their littermates was used. What happens in the future when these dogs will be linebreed?? when ep in smooths doesn't excist more than in my brain...
viva1: It would be so good to know more about the known epileptic dogs or lines. But maybe the breeders are keeping it as a secret? Or is there a possibility to know more? It's really frightening that you might linebreed to them or with them, because you just did not get the info. It is not good for the breed to keep it in secret...
Godiva: About health problems in general: I know that what I'm going to suggest now is very bold, somebody might say even improper. But I'm dreaming of a Collie world where the breeders put also all the negative things and possible health problems of their dogs to their own website. I have done so (even though it might look bad), and I have received very nice feedback. I'm challenging everybody with a website to tell about their problems (with health and with character, too) for the best of our breed.
Lisa: I think, just like you said, that it should be told from what lines we can expect epi. I would love to know if such dogs are in the pedigree of my own smooth, for example, or in the lines of dogs that are now used for breding... these informations are nowhere visible if you look for it and this makes it extremely difficult to choose a healthy course in breeding. As my dog is partly out of commonly used lines, i would love to know if these lines are suspected to carry epi. but I also fear that many breeders would not make it public if one of their dogs suffer from epi.
viva1: Yes, and there will be a huge problem in some years in the breed if the serious health problems remain hidden from the responsible breeders. If by chance, you have a healthy bitch now and you know which dog or line is also healthy, free from any serious deseases, you could just start to breed healthy stocks. Healthy dogs should be the future and which are good for the breed! But this way? What can happen? There will be no healthy lines in some years. Maybe there is not now any, anymore.
Mabinogion: To Oneway's First of all let me say that i really resent the fingerpointing u r doing in your post, it is not why i posted here and u should be careful with that when posting. Would rather u use more private channels to get personal info across. Secondly thank u for the information offered , u are one of the few who dare say something about it and ofcourse i agree that breeders must be more open about health things, it is one of the reasons i made this post besides just wanting to know more about epilepsy There are smooth litters born with epileptic dogs in them all over europe some of them i know of . what i know about epilepsie is ,that it dont come from one parent ,if the dogs are healty and NOT have epi and they give offspring who have epi (and then you still not sure if it is primair of secundair) the parenst both are carrier for this . so ,if there are offspring with epilepsie ,there are more carriers in our breed. i love to know more about all kind of healt things and olso epilepsie . we have such a small genepool ,one day all those things we dont want will come out if we are not honest about everything.
OneWay's: Mabinogion it was no finger pointing! Maybe you forgot what I told you looong time ago about the epileptic dogs that I knew about?? why take it private, when you are asking here about it in a forum? shouldn't breeder be more open or what? or what do you want to hide is my question? Some people seems to remember the things they want and nothing more... And yes, I understand that you think and know lots of things about how I'm thinking, your new honest friends is of course willing to help you with that!
acting smooth: Nobody knows yet epilepsies inheritance. Possibly there will be more alternatives than just "carrier" or "non carrier". One thing that would be important now, is that breeders wouldn't use lots of the same stud dog especially when he is still young and you don't know what will his offsprig be. Patience is needed, and meanwhile we should use our small genepool as widely as possible. One of my dogs has recently discovered to have epilepsy, and he is from quite common lines. I don't want to blame his breeder nor his father, I just hope he would be the one and only within their breeding.
Lisa: acting smooth I think it is great that you have put that openly on your website. It surely is difficult to react until we do not know exactly about the genetics of epilepsy and can therefore not even say if a dog suffering from epilepsy got it from the parents or via accident...
Godiva: If there are epileptic dogs in our Smooths' pedigrees and there's always the risk these dogs can be linebred, why can't people just tell their names?
viva1: If the breeders keep the names in secret, I must think that those are unresponsible breeders, who do NOT want to leave those dogs out of breeding. I'm afraid, this is the reason. And it is very very sad... And what Acting smooth is writing, that not to use a young male often until you realize what he can bring to the breed, here comes pointless, because you will never know what bad things the dog really gives to his offsprings, if there is noone that would tell you the truth.
Mabinogion: Mabinogion wrote: no ,i dont have something to hide,i just wants to now more for the future when we are looking for new partners for our girls. and about your last words ......................really not nice of you!
Lisa: Using the same stud dogs too often is surely a big problem in the smooth breed... If you look at males who have had over 30 or up to 70 litters in their life - with the number of smooth litters at all - just start calculating how closely related they will soon all be.... or already are. I can not understand why these dogs are used so often, even if they are beautyful, when we know about our small genepool already - there would be no need to make the inbreeding matters even worse. But I am not a breeder yet, so who knows what details I might be mising here...
Alertness: I myself am very lucky to have a smooth breeder who is honest and publish the health statistics for her litters on her website, and I'm happy to see that there are a few other breeders who do the same. Hopefully more breeders will find the courage with time and follow their lead. What would have been perfect was if there were some kind of central health registry where puppy buyers and breeders could report cases of genetic diseases. But as long as not everyone dares to be honest it would never fulfil its purpose to the full... Honest requires bravery, but also respect for each other: If breeders start blaming each other then very few people will want to be honest. Honesty will only work effectively if we manage to work together and not against each other. If searching thoroughly all breeders will find some sick individual(s) behind their lines, so we're all in the same boat so to speak. I also do not think it is possible to avoid lines with cases of epilepsy alltogether; there simply wouldn't be enough breeding material left on which to breed. So the purpose of finding out which dogs in which lines has epilepsy is not to ban these lines for breeding but to choose wisely how to combine the different lines so that the risk for doubling genes for epilepsy is kept as low as possible.
Lisa: Alertness Very well said I think
OneWay's: Alertness it's true, but when I look at a pedigree and can se that 3 different lines with ep dogs is in that same pedigree, than I wonder where that honestly is? And people gladly buy these dogs to be new breedingstock...
Alertness: I can't answer in behalf of others, I don't know what breeders think or how much they know about the ancestors in the pedigrees of their dogs, but as I said I don't think it's possible to avoid all lines with ep cases in them all together, there wouldn't be enough breeding material. So if the epi cases aren't too close in the pedigree then the risk of ep in a chosen litter might not be too high, as long as one seeks to avoid inbreeding. Unfortunately breeding is always a risky undertaking as there are no 100% healthy lines anywhere. Things may pop up when you least expect it. That's why breeders need to respect each other and not blame each other
Godiva: OneWay's: Could you please tell us the names? With your knowledge you could help other breeders so much.
OneWay's: A few owners to ep dogs put their names in homepages... others say these dogs doesn't excist, and people who KNOW that these dogs had ep doesn't care. One newbie breeders should mate her bitch to a male who had ep dogs close relativs, I told her, she even called the owner of one of these ep dogs, but didn't care anyway... No one of these pups got ep as I know, but next time one of the pups where used on another smooth also with ep dogs close behind. I wish I didn't know about these dogs, much easier to breed use the nice males with long titles and doesn't care, just stuck the head in the sand, but I can't:(
Dianne: As usual the "still, small voice of calm" from Alertness
Dianne: As usual, the "still, small voice of calm" from Alertness. Thank you
Dianne: As usual, the "still, small voice of calm" from Alertness. Thank you
Dianne: Sorry - posted three times because I was not at the bottom of the posts, so didn't see my posts appear. Hope someone will remove two of these posts. I am rusty - haven't been online for some time
OneWay's: The newbies always knew best, if you never had any puppies or just had a few litter, you knew more than people who had this breed for a long time. Strange isn't it? to give advice to others when you doesn't know a thing about breeding...
nuedeli: I think the science of genetics is not a science which only experienced breeders are able to understand ! Inbreeding and linebreeding was usual so long, and as I confess, it was necessary to create the different breeds. But nowadays, with rising illnesses at every breed - we have to avoid that, as far as possible at our small genepool and we might have the possibilty to avoid genetic defects. To do a screening about all adult dogs over two years and install after that time a database should be successful and very helpfull, for breeders as well as for puppy buyers. But this proposal was refused by breeders at our anual Smoothbreeder meeting in 2011. So - what's to do ? Do what the "experineced breeders" do ? Who still double lines and even lines, which are known for producing epilepsy and heart defects ? The champion dogs with lots of titles have bad genes as every dog has, but by using them much to often, we diminish the gene pool constantly - superfluous to say, that our show system still does promote this practice. The phenotyp seems to be the only criterion for many breeders to choose a dog for their bitch. It is at the borderline of deception to produce narrow linebred puppies and give them to families, who do not care so much about beauty, but about health and character, and at least hope to keep this puppy for a dog life long. THIS is our responsibilty and not the creation of an ultimately beautiful animal ! And thankyou Alertness for your comments - only few breeders think like you !
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