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Hips Dysplasia - URGENT !
Glenmorangie: Hello all, I am making researches on The Smooth Collie Database (and other Collie Databases) and I find many dogs and bitches whose hips are mentioned as "free". Does this mention mean "HD A" (A/A) or also a very slight dysplasia as "HD B" (A/B or B/B) It seems this mention "free" is regularly used in Scandinavian countries or maybe in North-eastern countries too. I am actually very concerned about this subject so please could you be so kind to reply me ? Best regards, Françoise
Îòâåòîâ - 19
Jack Mack: I go from the FCI A1/A2 B1/B2 C1/C2 etc. In Germany A1 and A2 means no sign of hip dysplasia and B1 and B2 is transitional case but when I asked the vet who does all the evaluations for our club he said a dog with HDB has no hip dysplacia (HD) and can also be called free...... Denmark has the same system as Germany In Sweden A1 is called Utmärkt which means excellent, A2 and B1 is called U.A. which means no sign of HD, B2 and C1 is stage I In Finland A1 means no dysplacia "good", A2 means no displacia, B1 and B2 is also transitional case In the Netherlands A1 is perfect, A2 is good, B1 and B2 are called transitional case In Swizzerland A1, A2 and B1 are called free, B2 and C is stage I In America A1 is excellent, A2 is good, B1 is fair, B2 is borderline So you see, unless the dog has HD B2 to C one can call them free of hip dysplacia
Alertness: In all the Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland and Finland) both A and B are free of HD (we don't grade it further like B1 or B2; a B2 would get the grade "C" in these countries). An "B" from any of these countries does not mean the dog has hip dysplasia, it means it is free. Berit
Jack Mack: In Finland and the Netherlands A is divided: Finland: A1 = Ei dysplasiaa "hyvät" and A2 = Ei dysplasiaa B = Rajatapaus (whatever that means) Netherlands: A1 = Negatif geheel gaaf (1) and A2 is Negatif niet geheel gaaf (2)
Glenmorangie: Jack Mack and Alertness Thank you very much for your quick and useful replies which correspond to what I was afraid of. I am particularly upset about one of my bitch hips dysplasia results. She is declared as B then after the deep study I made of her pedigree I think she normally shoud be A. Even her breeder does not understand. In France, dogs are notified by letters for each hip according to the measure of Norberg Olsson's angle degree. > 105° is A, from 100° upto 105° is B, < 100° is either C, D or E. At last, if a dog is notified as A/B, for instance, he will be internationally classified as B since they take the badest result. So the mention "free" means nothing to me. In my point of view, only dogs notified A/A (thus classified A) should be mentioned as Free from Dysplasia. B is already a start of dysplasia thus not "free". Always according to my point of view, by comparison with CEA, a simple CEA/CH is the smallest grade of CEA but the dog is declared Affected and everyone accepts this fact. What would happen if CEA/CH suddenly becomes "free from CEA" (I am not speaking about the fact that most of Collie clubs allow matings from CEA affected dogs, huh ?.....) ? I know that mating A to B or even B to B can give A puppies but the percentage is rather thin and certainly B to B can produce C or worse puppies. In regard to the French Law, the risk of sale cancellation is high for the breeder. Maybe big breeders could stand this problem..... *Not me*. I now know that the mention "free" was used many years ago (while significative letters are used since more recently) but this fact does certainly not help my argument for the defense of my bitch Many thanks again to both of you, Best regards, Françoise
Jack Mack: In Germany we still have A1 - A2 - B1 - B2 on the forms of hip-screening as FCI states that but in pedigrees there is only mentioned A - B etc. My male Mika is B1 and there is not a single dog in his pedigree who is not mentioned A so I was very astonished about that. I had asked the vet how that could be since I saw the x-ray and it looked very good to me. I was told it was no hip displacia but a very slight divergenz..... I too did matings of B1 to B1 and had all offspring screened because I feared it would be inherited but all puppies came out hips A ! And yes, I think the mention "free" does not tell anything about the actual status of the hips, this is why I always mention the exact results next to the mention free
Dianne: Hi "rajatapaus" means borderline according to my Estonian husband. As far as I understand, hips B are not considered to be dysplasic in France. Have you actually found cases where hips B married to hips B produce dogs with Displasia? I know you do a lot of research. Dianne
Alertness: Francoise wrote: "In my point of view, only dogs notified A/A (thus classified A) should be mentioned as Free from Dysplasia. B is already a start of dysplasia thus not "free". This is not correct according to the Nordic Kennel Club board panel of vets that has come together to coordinate how the x-rays are read. A and B are just variations of free, B is not a start of dysplasia, C is. There has been statistics made though in other countries that suggest that mating B to B in some breeds may produce slightly more cases of HD than if you mate A to A or A to B. But these are very slight variations, no huge differences, and these numbers might not relate to the smooth collie for all I know. But generally the advice is to mate a B to an A, this is considered quite safe . So far we are blessed with very little HD in the breed. We also have to remember that x-raying the dog's hips is a clinical examination, it doesn't say anything about the HD-carrying genes of the dog. And the pictures are also read by humans, so there will naturally be very slight variations. Thus a dog with a B one year may very well get an A the next year if new pictures are taken. I wouldn't get too worked up by a "B" . Berit
myrnash: Yes, there can be a difference in the same dog according to who is reading the x ray or if the position is exactly right or not. I have seen the x ray of a dog of another breed, that was done in France, and classified as B, and the x ray would never be accepted here, the dog would be sent to be x rayed again, as the position was not completely symmetrical. When the dog was x rayed again here, he was classified A. These very slight differences will affect the rating of A and B - a dog that does have HD and would be C or more, would be much easier to classify, even if the x ray was not perfect.
Glenmorangie: myrnash wrote: Yes, there can be a difference in the same dog according to who is reading the x ray Quite agree and this is THE problem (which I won't discuss here but it is a reality) and my bitch was in a perfect position. These are the reasons why I want to know the most possible of what the mention "free" refers to within my bitch's pedigree. --------- Alertness wrote: This is not correct according to the Nordic Kennel Club board panel of vets that has come together to coordinate how the x-rays are read. A and B are just variations of free, B is not a start of dysplasia, C is. My point of view is only my point of view and has nothing to do with what the Officials decide about what is good or bad in breeding. I don't know any country on that earth which refuse B grade in the Collie breed (if there is one, please let me know). My point of view differs from the Officials' one in that if my bitch is B she only has *almost normal hips* and *almost normal* is NOT *quite normal* (by the way, please take a look at the FCI link on that subject http://www.fci.be/commissions.aspx) thus she is already dysplasic. If worldwide Officials accept B grade as "free" it is (hopefully) because of the safe of an as large genetic diversity as possible within each breed. I don't see any other good reason for keeping B grade in breeding. Mating B to A sounds fine to my ears. With about a dozen of Smooth Collies in age to reproduce among which four stud dogs (one sable, one blue, two trics) belonging to the same family at different degrees, we have quickly made the tour !!!!! Well, now I have the first part of the response I wanted, it remains the second part : knowing "who is what" behind this §'!"é@! mention "free". Best regards, Françoise
Jack Mack: As far as I know it is not even necessary in some countries (Netherlands) to sedate the dog - tell me if I am wrong! I would like to know how it is handled in all your countries Gudrun
Glenmorangie: It is quite against the new FCI rules which obliges ALL vets to sedate or to anesthetize the dogs I can't imagine the suffering the dog could undergo if he is dysplasic and not anesthetized. In addition, even if the dog is healthy and calm, his muscles can not be relaxed enough and consequently the x-ray results are somewhat falsified. The awake method is now considered as a fraud because it tends to increase falsly the numer of A dogs (method that lots of "breeders" well know.....) I know in France that some Collie breeders are against to anesthetize their dogs because they are afraid to see them dieing on the table, because of MDR1, because of this or that...... I am agree that anesthetizing is not an innocent medical act, but they must know that if they don't want to sedate or to anesthetize their dogs, they fall under the law and their vets too. I can't believe that a serious veterinary will accept to compromise his reputation and his career to please to this kind of clients........ Personally, I went to a well reputed Veterinarian University in my region to x-ray my smooths and all have been anesthetized and everything has been done conformly to the rules and law. I spent there all my morning, waiting that each was x-rayed and well awaken and I can say that when they came back they rather looked like Huskies and the "poor" vets like mushers behind Oh ! And three of them are MDR1 -/- Best regards, Françoise
Cinnaberry: In Finland dog has to be sedated for official x-rayes. You cannot get the dog to required position if it's awake. I don't know if the position required by FKK differs from other countries. Glenmorangie: You are of course free to think that only A-hips are free. But you cannot call B hips dysplasic, since they are not. They are "near normal", in many cases f.ex. just slightly loose. They may not be 100% perfect, but they are not dysplasic either.
Jack Mack: Here they can be perfectly closed and reall tight in the joints but if they do not meet the grading (however you call that in english) they get the mention B
Dianne: What are we to think about dogs that were hip tested before the new rule came in that all hips should be tested under anaesthetic? Dogs can be tested under anaesthetic or they can be sedated with molecules that are not dangerous to MDR/1 affected dogs. Dianne
Cinnaberry: Just out of curiosity... What anaesthetics are used in Europe, that are considered to be dangerous for MDR -/- dogs? I have -/- dogs that have been sedated / under anaesthetic quite a few times, and MRD status have never even been discussed with the vet. I have never even heard that any -/- dog here would have had any troubles with anaesthetics.
Mabinogion: our dogs never had any problems with anaesthetics at all ,olso not on a old ages ! our vet use all kind of anaesthetics ,like domtior or ketamine ,the last one only in a very small dossis ,because this can give problems. she is very secure howmany she have to give etc we never had any problems ,not with castration from the bitches,x,sections etc etc olso there never was any problem with other kind of medications etc i think if you vet know what to do and how ,there really is no problem.
Dianne: Hi to Cinnaberry. Unfortunately, an affected dog died here in France under anaesthetic for a hip x-ray.This happened in a big well-known kennel to a very beautiful young rough dog with lots of promise. There was a lot of shock and upset here. http://www.collie-online.com/colley/mdr1/mdr1_colley_1.htm Here is a page on Collie Online - it's in French, but all the dangerous molecules are listed. Dianne
Eldorado: Hello, I found this post so interesting that I decided to participate to for my firsts "posting" ... (sorry if my english is not as correct as I wish to be) from documents I have (French hips results), I can read A : is for : no sign of dysplasia >= 105° B : is for : slightly normal hips 105> <100 C : is for : slighty dysplasia < 100 From a Norberg_Olsson angle lower then 100° we can speek about dysplasia and not before. As Dysplasia is known to be due partly to genetic and partly to environment , can Pedigree be blamed ? What about a dog with 104° angle (HD B) springed from 105° parents (HD A) ??? Glenmorangie , wouldn't you mind indicating the angle of your bitch's hips ? closer to 105 or to 100 ? I think it's a shame not mating a "B" bitch as genetic diversity can be reduced rapidly.
mojito: Hello, In Poland you have A - no sign of dysplasia B - slightly normal hips I have 3 collies with mdr -/- .I sedated them by standart drugs to anesthesia (I'm veterinary surgeon).This drugs are not on special list for dogs with mdr1 -/-. There is a chance that something will happen after general anesthesia and dog doesn,t wake up after that. It depends on vet eperience or health status of dog (sometimes we don't know that something is not OK, dogs seems to be healthly; there are not too many owners who want to do exam of heart or blood tests before anesthesia -> my experience). This applies not only collie,but other breeds too.I agree we must be very carefull when we have dog with mdr1 -/- and we want to sedate him/her. Sorry for my english
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