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Rough collies in smooth litters: what about documents
Natalain: I`m interesting in it... when in smooth litter you get rough puppies, what about documents for them? As I understan in USA, Australia, Canada you can have documents for puppies as rough collies. In Sweden - too. In Finland they will be registered as smooth. What about rules in other countries for such situation?
Uptown Girl: In Slovakia, this puppies have rough collie pedigree, too.
Natalain: Uptown Girl Thank you!
MacGeeґs: Natalain: How about in Russia?
Jack Mack: I just had a rough from my smooth x smooth T-litter registered here in Germany in the rough collie stud book for her owner in Italy because they would not register her as rough there.
Alertness: Very interesting! I think it is good that a rough puppy from a smooth litter may be registered as what it really is which is a rough collie. I have another question that is related to this: Are there any other countries in Europe apart from Sweden that allows the breeding of rough to smooth? I have seen on some of the European pedigrees at the smooth collie data base that several smooths (with no American lineage) have roughs in their lineage, and it's not so long ago (only 2-4 generations ago). Does this mean that some European countries still allow the interbreeding between roughs and smooths? Or did all European countries except for Sweden follow the example of the breed's country of origin, England, and discontinue the practise in 1994? Anyone, do you know? I know that in the States and in Canada it is still okay with rough/smooth breeding and is done to a considerable extent, but what about Australia and New Zealand. Does anyone know whether interbreeding is allowed in these parts of the world; or what about other parts of Asia? Berit
Fanna: I find this a very interesting topic since we, in Iceland, are making these rules now. I have been asked about my opinion on this and have been wondering about what to do about roughs in smooth litters, rough/smooth breeding, sable x merle...? Interesting to hear your opinion on this. The collie population is very small in Iceland, only one rough breeder and so far there is no smooth collie at all in Iceland... But I hope that´ll change soon . It would be very nice to hear your opinion on this. Fanna
Jack Mack: Let me state it like this in a few words: If you cross a poodle and a collie you will get a litter of crossbreds but you will have no poodles or collies. If you cross a rough and a smooth collie you will get all collies. Since smooth is dominant over rough you will get a litter of all smooth if the smooth is pure for smooth. If you cross two rough factored smooths you will probably have some roughs in the litter and they are pure for rough since smooth is dominant. In America and Canada it is one breed with two varieties and they constantly cross roughs and smooths which results in roughs and smooths puppies in the litters, there are no inbetweens.
Tentola: We did the last Rough to Smooth mating in the UK before they stopped allowing it. We had three puppies all rough and we registered them as Roughs. That was in 1992/3.
Fanna: We did the last Rough to Smooth mating in the UK before they stopped allowing it. We had three puppies all rough and we registered them as Roughs. That was in 1992/3. What do you do about roughs from smooth litters? In America and Canada it is one breed with two varieties and they constantly cross roughs and smooths which results in roughs and smooths puppies in the litters, there are no inbetweens. I´ve thought a lot about that. I wonder if maybe there will be some "inbetweens" after a while? In America I know they have to use the scissors a bit on the coat before shows. Also there is a lot inbetweens in the icelandic sheepdog and the Chihuahua even though they are supposed to be long- and smooth coated. mbk. Fanna
Natalain: Jack Mack wrote: I just had a rough from my smooth x smooth T-litter registered here in Germany in the rough collie stud book for her owner in Italy because they would not register her as rough there. You mean that you can registered rough collie from smooth litter as rough collie in Germany? In Russia we have not rules yet and now this question in consider process.
Alertness: Hi Fanna If you look at the American smooths and roughs that are being interbred generation upon generation you see that there are no "inbetweens"; the result will never be a collie that is neither smooth nor rough, it will not be like a border collie with semi-long coat. Yes, the smooths may get a little thicker and more "open" coat, but it will never be long. And the roughs from such breedings do tend to get a less abundant coat (not as excessive), but they will never be short-haired. These roughs from smooth litters may actually look a lot like the early rough historic collie with a more moderate and functional coat (but still long). Personally I find the roughs from smooth litters very fascinating; they're like a living history book . They show us what roughs really are supposed to look like if breeders hadn't worked hard to breed for the massive, excessive coat of today's modern collies. Berit
Shabtay: I think what you are saying here is very interesting Berit! And I couldn't agree more, it is so interesting to see roughs from smooth litters!
Fanna: I do agree with you Berit. I also find the roughs from the smooth litters very fascinating and actually I´d wish more of them were used in rough breeding. The roughs I´ve seen from those litters are more like I would like to see the rough collies. I agree that I´ve never seen a collie that I can´t tell if it is a smooth or a rough, but as soon as you have to groom (use scissors on) a smooth before a show I think that coat has become something inbetween ... But remember I´ve very very little experience of smooth collies .
Tentola: I agree with Berit. We have been to America many time to watch the collies and go and see breeders and there Smooths and Rough are of the same type, just as the standard requires. In Europe they are often like too different breeds and what really annoys me is when a Rough breeders says that a particular Smooth is fantastic, but I would think if you were to put a coat on it and call it a Rough Collie they would hate it.
Uptown Girl: 3 litters smooth x rough was in Slovakia in past 1996 - rough male x smooth female (kennel Fatransky sen) 1998 - smooth male x rough female (kennel Zlatý dážď) 2003 - rough male x smooth female (kennel Fatransky sen) I think, it is still allowed here
Alertness: Thanks "Uptown Girl", it certainly loks like rough/smooth breedings are allowed in Slovakia. I've also looked at recent Australian pedigrees, and it seems like rough/smooth breedings also are allowed "down under". I agree with you "Tentola"; in Europe the rough and the smooth collie really is of two totally different types nowadays, especially the head type, but also conformation-wise the smooths are different built. If you put a smooth head of excellent "smooth quality" unto the body of a rough collie most rough breeders would wrinkle their nose and consider it a very ugly head Berit
Jack Mack: Natalain - in Germany we have two clubs that are in charge of the smooth collie, the DCC = German Collie Club and the CfBrH = Club for Britisch Herding Dogs which is my club and I was able to register the bitch only when she was grown up, not right away when she was a puppy and I had to pay a fee for it :-( One of the puppies is with a rough collie breeder from the other club and they do not know yet, how to handle it...... Fanna - in America they use scissors not to cut too long hair but to give the dogs a really smooth look, they even cut the whiskers When I purchased my first american smooth I picked her up at the National and I did not want her whiskers cut and she won an Award of Merit anyway, so you see, it is not even necessary
Alertness: Very interesting information "Jack Mack": Are both clubs (DCC and CfBrH) associated/approved by the VDH? I.e. would a rough from a smooth litter registered as a rough in the CfBrH be allowed to have a VDH (export) pedigree paper issued if you for instance were to sell it abroad? About the trimming of the smooth collie coat for shows: This is even done here in Europe by some, it's as Jack Mack writes: It's to give the dog an even smoother look, hoping to better the chances of winning in the ring as the dog looks "sleeker" and more elegant. As to the cutting of the whiskers; that's really stupid I think Berit
Jack Mack: Yes Berit, both clubs are approved by the VDH. And yes, I got an export pedigree for the bitch which I have sold to an Italian breeder. I will try to put photos as examples from my T-litter with a rough collies, a rough-factored smooth and a pure for smooth smooth in the photoalbum. Cross your fingers it works Gudrun
Glenmorangie: Hello Natalain and all of you, Just few words to say that, in France, rough x smooth crosses are forbiden since 1993. However, and whatever the bloodlines Smooths are born from, there are sometimes rough puppies in smooths litters. After having mated my two bitches last year, I learnt that the French Collie Club decided to forbid the registration of the rough puppies born from smooth litters "because we are afraid they produce semi-long coated dogs when mated with the roughs"...... !!!!!! This stupid comment emanates from some quite irrelevant people set within the committee, those people who breed the Potatoe-Couch Colley and know nothing about breeding the Colley. So, the unfortunate rough puppies born from smooth litters will be either killed at birth or sold as pets without to be registered (the last option is completely in contradiction with the French Kennel Club's rules who prevent registered breeders to sell unregistered puppies). As long as the French Collie Club will keep these people in its belly, the Colley breed will be dead and buried. This story began about 25 years ago....... The worst is that I can not consider the Smooth Collie protected against the non-respect of the Standard. And the Smooth, here in France, is only a microscopic population. Can you only imagine that my little Damona is only the 146th Smooth Collie registered at the French Stud Book since it exists (1933) ???? Oh, sorry, there still will be 4 little Smoothies to be registered in few weeks (thus the latest n° 150 !!!). I am happy to learn that there is a second country in Europe who still considers roughs from smooths as Roughs So Fanna if you have the possibility to preserve the Colley gene pool diversity in Iceland by crossing roughs and smooths, just do it !!!! Best regards, Françoise
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