Breeding Rough collies in smooth litters: what about documents

Rough collies in smooth litters: what about documents

Natalain: I`m interesting in it... when in smooth litter you get rough puppies, what about documents for them? As I understan in USA, Australia, Canada you can have documents for puppies as rough collies. In Sweden - too. In Finland they will be registered as smooth. What about rules in other countries for such situation?

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Uptown Girl: In Slovakia, this puppies have rough collie pedigree, too.

Natalain: Uptown Girl Thank you!

MacGees: Natalain: How about in Russia?

Jack Mack: I just had a rough from my smooth x smooth T-litter registered here in Germany in the rough collie stud book for her owner in Italy because they would not register her as rough there.

Alertness: Very interesting! I think it is good that a rough puppy from a smooth litter may be registered as what it really is which is a rough collie. I have another question that is related to this: Are there any other countries in Europe apart from Sweden that allows the breeding of rough to smooth? I have seen on some of the European pedigrees at the smooth collie data base that several smooths (with no American lineage) have roughs in their lineage, and it's not so long ago (only 2-4 generations ago). Does this mean that some European countries still allow the interbreeding between roughs and smooths? Or did all European countries except for Sweden follow the example of the breed's country of origin, England, and discontinue the practise in 1994? Anyone, do you know? I know that in the States and in Canada it is still okay with rough/smooth breeding and is done to a considerable extent, but what about Australia and New Zealand. Does anyone know whether interbreeding is allowed in these parts of the world; or what about other parts of Asia? Berit

Fanna: I find this a very interesting topic since we, in Iceland, are making these rules now. I have been asked about my opinion on this and have been wondering about what to do about roughs in smooth litters, rough/smooth breeding, sable x merle...? Interesting to hear your opinion on this. The collie population is very small in Iceland, only one rough breeder and so far there is no smooth collie at all in Iceland... But I hope that´ll change soon . It would be very nice to hear your opinion on this. Fanna

Jack Mack: Let me state it like this in a few words: If you cross a poodle and a collie you will get a litter of crossbreds but you will have no poodles or collies. If you cross a rough and a smooth collie you will get all collies. Since smooth is dominant over rough you will get a litter of all smooth if the smooth is pure for smooth. If you cross two rough factored smooths you will probably have some roughs in the litter and they are pure for rough since smooth is dominant. In America and Canada it is one breed with two varieties and they constantly cross roughs and smooths which results in roughs and smooths puppies in the litters, there are no inbetweens.

Tentola: We did the last Rough to Smooth mating in the UK before they stopped allowing it. We had three puppies all rough and we registered them as Roughs. That was in 1992/3.

Fanna: We did the last Rough to Smooth mating in the UK before they stopped allowing it. We had three puppies all rough and we registered them as Roughs. That was in 1992/3. What do you do about roughs from smooth litters? In America and Canada it is one breed with two varieties and they constantly cross roughs and smooths which results in roughs and smooths puppies in the litters, there are no inbetweens. I´ve thought a lot about that. I wonder if maybe there will be some "inbetweens" after a while? In America I know they have to use the scissors a bit on the coat before shows. Also there is a lot inbetweens in the icelandic sheepdog and the Chihuahua even though they are supposed to be long- and smooth coated. mbk. Fanna

Natalain: Jack Mack wrote: I just had a rough from my smooth x smooth T-litter registered here in Germany in the rough collie stud book for her owner in Italy because they would not register her as rough there. You mean that you can registered rough collie from smooth litter as rough collie in Germany? In Russia we have not rules yet and now this question in consider process.

Alertness: Hi Fanna If you look at the American smooths and roughs that are being interbred generation upon generation you see that there are no "inbetweens"; the result will never be a collie that is neither smooth nor rough, it will not be like a border collie with semi-long coat. Yes, the smooths may get a little thicker and more "open" coat, but it will never be long. And the roughs from such breedings do tend to get a less abundant coat (not as excessive), but they will never be short-haired. These roughs from smooth litters may actually look a lot like the early rough historic collie with a more moderate and functional coat (but still long). Personally I find the roughs from smooth litters very fascinating; they're like a living history book . They show us what roughs really are supposed to look like if breeders hadn't worked hard to breed for the massive, excessive coat of today's modern collies. Berit

Shabtay: I think what you are saying here is very interesting Berit! And I couldn't agree more, it is so interesting to see roughs from smooth litters!

Fanna: I do agree with you Berit. I also find the roughs from the smooth litters very fascinating and actually I´d wish more of them were used in rough breeding. The roughs I´ve seen from those litters are more like I would like to see the rough collies. I agree that I´ve never seen a collie that I can´t tell if it is a smooth or a rough, but as soon as you have to groom (use scissors on) a smooth before a show I think that coat has become something inbetween ... But remember I´ve very very little experience of smooth collies .

Tentola: I agree with Berit. We have been to America many time to watch the collies and go and see breeders and there Smooths and Rough are of the same type, just as the standard requires. In Europe they are often like too different breeds and what really annoys me is when a Rough breeders says that a particular Smooth is fantastic, but I would think if you were to put a coat on it and call it a Rough Collie they would hate it.

Uptown Girl: 3 litters smooth x rough was in Slovakia in past 1996 - rough male x smooth female (kennel Fatransky sen) 1998 - smooth male x rough female (kennel Zlatý dážď) 2003 - rough male x smooth female (kennel Fatransky sen) I think, it is still allowed here

Alertness: Thanks "Uptown Girl", it certainly loks like rough/smooth breedings are allowed in Slovakia. I've also looked at recent Australian pedigrees, and it seems like rough/smooth breedings also are allowed "down under". I agree with you "Tentola"; in Europe the rough and the smooth collie really is of two totally different types nowadays, especially the head type, but also conformation-wise the smooths are different built. If you put a smooth head of excellent "smooth quality" unto the body of a rough collie most rough breeders would wrinkle their nose and consider it a very ugly head Berit

Jack Mack: Natalain - in Germany we have two clubs that are in charge of the smooth collie, the DCC = German Collie Club and the CfBrH = Club for Britisch Herding Dogs which is my club and I was able to register the bitch only when she was grown up, not right away when she was a puppy and I had to pay a fee for it :-( One of the puppies is with a rough collie breeder from the other club and they do not know yet, how to handle it...... Fanna - in America they use scissors not to cut too long hair but to give the dogs a really smooth look, they even cut the whiskers When I purchased my first american smooth I picked her up at the National and I did not want her whiskers cut and she won an Award of Merit anyway, so you see, it is not even necessary

Alertness: Very interesting information "Jack Mack": Are both clubs (DCC and CfBrH) associated/approved by the VDH? I.e. would a rough from a smooth litter registered as a rough in the CfBrH be allowed to have a VDH (export) pedigree paper issued if you for instance were to sell it abroad? About the trimming of the smooth collie coat for shows: This is even done here in Europe by some, it's as Jack Mack writes: It's to give the dog an even smoother look, hoping to better the chances of winning in the ring as the dog looks "sleeker" and more elegant. As to the cutting of the whiskers; that's really stupid I think Berit

Jack Mack: Yes Berit, both clubs are approved by the VDH. And yes, I got an export pedigree for the bitch which I have sold to an Italian breeder. I will try to put photos as examples from my T-litter with a rough collies, a rough-factored smooth and a pure for smooth smooth in the photoalbum. Cross your fingers it works Gudrun

Glenmorangie: Hello Natalain and all of you, Just few words to say that, in France, rough x smooth crosses are forbiden since 1993. However, and whatever the bloodlines Smooths are born from, there are sometimes rough puppies in smooths litters. After having mated my two bitches last year, I learnt that the French Collie Club decided to forbid the registration of the rough puppies born from smooth litters "because we are afraid they produce semi-long coated dogs when mated with the roughs"...... !!!!!! This stupid comment emanates from some quite irrelevant people set within the committee, those people who breed the Potatoe-Couch Colley and know nothing about breeding the Colley. So, the unfortunate rough puppies born from smooth litters will be either killed at birth or sold as pets without to be registered (the last option is completely in contradiction with the French Kennel Club's rules who prevent registered breeders to sell unregistered puppies). As long as the French Collie Club will keep these people in its belly, the Colley breed will be dead and buried. This story began about 25 years ago....... The worst is that I can not consider the Smooth Collie protected against the non-respect of the Standard. And the Smooth, here in France, is only a microscopic population. Can you only imagine that my little Damona is only the 146th Smooth Collie registered at the French Stud Book since it exists (1933) ???? Oh, sorry, there still will be 4 little Smoothies to be registered in few weeks (thus the latest n 150 !!!). I am happy to learn that there is a second country in Europe who still considers roughs from smooths as Roughs So Fanna if you have the possibility to preserve the Colley gene pool diversity in Iceland by crossing roughs and smooths, just do it !!!! Best regards, Françoise

Alertness: I'm so happy to see that I'm not alone in thinking that it's a shame that roughs from smooth breedings aren't being registered as roughs in a lot of countries (or rough/smooth matings are prohibitied). I believe the rough breeders are potentially losing out on some very valuable genes by not recognising these collies as "true roughs". But when a certain look is more important than the breed's genetic diversity or general health, this is the end result, unfortunately. But we'll have to be happy that there are still a few countries out there who recognises the collie for what it is. Berit

Natalain: Thanks to all for opinions!!! Tentola wrote: In Europe they are often like too different breeds and what really annoys me is when a Rough breeders says that a particular Smooth is fantastic, but I would think if you were to put a coat on it and call it a Rough Collie they would hate it. Yes... Now in Russia we were try to create rules about registrations of rough from smooth litter and... Almost all people in Kennel club were enough good think about it... except our Rough Collie Club. Modern collies breeders said that it is not collie and we can`t to register them as rough now in Russia So... may be somebody from other countries could help us with it?

cris: Very interesting topic!!! And ...well said, Francoise!!

Jack Mack: I do not understand the officials of the clubs, have they not learned about genetic? By the way, Jack Mack's T Bhan Teth, a bitch from smooth parents was placed ex4 in a class among 11 real roughs

Nina: Modern collies breeders said that it is not collie Maybe they're afraid it would become too obvious their "collies" are not collies...? Refer to the standard, it's your most powerful argument. According to the standard, a smooth with a coat shouldn't be any different from the rough. Unfortunately it's quite different in reality for the last 20-30 years... I'm scared to imagine a shaved "modern collie"... I truly hope you'll be able to register your puppies, fingers crossed! Jack Mack, beautiful bitch

cris: Jack Mack wrote: I'm scared to imagine a shaved "modern collie"... Me, too!

Alertness: Natalain wrote: "Modern collies breeders said that it is not collie". It certainly is a collie, but of a different type. I think that's the problem: Many breeders of rough collies today are terribly afraid of diversity. They think that there should only be one type, that every collie should look exactly the same, that everyone should interpret the collie standard exactly the same way. According to some a difference in type is a dangerous thing, that it will ruin the breed, so let's narrow the gene pool even further by linebreeding and inbreeding and only keep the one's that confirm to a very narrow interpretation of the standard... Berit

Glenmorangie: Jack Mack wrote: in America they use scissors not to cut too long hair but to give the dogs a really smooth look, they even cut the whiskers Oh !!! Really ???? Shame on me, I regularly visit a lot of American Collies websites and I have never noticed this "detail"..... Poor Collies, how can they do to feel their environment without these essential organs ???? By the way, Jack Mack's T Bhan Teth is quite a fantastic girl (especially with all her whiskers ) . Where was it and who was the judge ? Just an idea : if you come with her once at the French Collie Club Show....... ??? Don't you think this could be a fair experience for the judges ?? Anyway, she seems to smile and to laugh at our headache : she KNOWS she is a ROUGH Collie Nina wrote: I'm scared to imagine a shaved "modern collie"... Don't try to imagine..... Just do it But you know, when their bitches have puppies and they completely shed after that...... they look like (ugly) Smooth Collies Natalain wrote: So... may be somebody from other countries could help us with it? Not from France, I am afraid...... As they also use those who are in your country and as those of your country come from France and England -> "the loop is closed". That said, il seems to me there is a Rough Collie breeder, Tete-A-Tete Kennel (I hope I don't make a mistake with another country...) who breeds some nice Collies. No ? Alertness wrote: I think that's the problem: Many breeders of rough collies today are terribly afraid of diversity. Hmmmm..... Think they just want clones. From the very first day this kind of type appeared in England (I really don't konw HOW they do it ), the "French Rush" started immediately and they have had no cease trying to copy this, generation after generation, exagerating everything bad according to the Standard and judges were confronted to the dilemma : "if I refuse this kind of animal I will be sent packing and won't be invited anymore". This perverse attitude made some very good judges retired from the showring. In addition, as producers (sorry, I can't call them "Breeders") manufactured this handicaped animals, character tests became weaker and weaker to fit to their skull's marmalade. In the 80's, our character tests was quite at the same level than in Finland today, including herding test. Today, character test is split in three parts : a simple "natural" test, the sociability and working ability test and the herding test (the most interesting because it includes many exercices done in the other tests). As only one of these is required for some titles, you imagine well that they do the easiest !!! However, Working and Herding instinct still remains in some Rough Collies (by hazard those who fit closest to the Standard....). Another problem is that as long as they will not want to admit they are wrong, they will stay right in their boots. Admitting to be wrong requires force of courage and humbleness. Today, the British Kennel Club is reviewing 209 Standards whose the one of the Collie, especially the Rough. Reading this Standard, I still find it quite reasonable according to the rules of the breed health. So why reviewing a reasonable Standard ????? I am afraid they change it to fit to the today rough collie This is not the Standard which needs to be reviewed but rather the methods of breeding and selection. How high is the level of the experts' conscience ? I really hope that the Older breeders will butt in what is necessary to change..... Best regards, Françoise

cris: Glenmorangie wrote: I am afraid they change it to fit to the today rough collie This is not the Standard which needs to be reviewed but rather the methods of breeding and selection. I completely agree with you, Francoise!

Twinway: In France, it's exactly the same like in Finland, the "rough" collies puppies are registered like smooth collies puppies. If you want to breed smooth with rough it could be possible, you must absolutely obtain the agrement of the French collie kennel club and the agrement of the French Kennel Club.

Glenmorangie: Hi, So why don't you do this kind of mating ? This would necessarily bring good new blood within our microscopic Smooth population (in the condition to choose True Type Rough, of course) !!! But perhaps it is because these agreements certainly are extremly hard to obtain...... if impossible.... Oh, the Roughs born from Smooths are ROUGHS as they fatally are homozygous for the long hair gene. These Collies should be respected as True Collies and especially True Rough Collies thus they absolutely don't need "" Thank you in advance for them But if, despite this, there still is a visual doubt, it now exists a genetical test for coat length. Results : heterozygous ? the Collie is a Smooth (rough factored) - homozygous long hair ? the Collie IS a ROUGH - homozygous short hair ? the Collie is a Pure Smooth. One of the most important point of the Smooth Collie Standard which SHOULD NOT be neglected concerns the undercoat. It MUST be dense, thick, capable to protect the Collie against the worst weathers. Question : how to keep this vital quality if pure smooths always are bred only together for generations without to create weak, chilly..... in fine unhealthy thus unuseful animals Many, many people today yell they are passionate for the breed(s) they breed. OK (?). Now, how many really do their best to breed according the Standard ? Hmmm.... I surely should not be as passionate as it since I don't yell that I am "passionate", that I always tried to do my best to breed my Collies according to the Standard and still fight for the defence of the True Rough Collie Type (whatever it is born from...) Best regards, Françoise

Fanna: One of the most important point of the Smooth Collie Standard which SHOULD NOT be neglected concerns the undercoat. It MUST be dense, thick, capable to protect the Collie against the worst weathers. Question : how to keep this vital quality if pure smooths always are bred only together for generations without to create weak, chilly..... in fine unhealthy thus unuseful animals this is one thing I´ve thought about. Do we HAVE to mix them once in a while to get better coat? That´s what they say about the Icelandic sheepdog. Long haired and short haired Icelandic Sheepdogs are being mixed all the time and so it has been for a lot of years. Today we know the lh from the sh by the hairs on the tail and around the ears! . I´ve heard that it is the same for the Chihuahua and the Tervueren. I hope it´s ok to post some pictures from the internet to explain what I mean. Tervueren: Tervueren: and the Icelandic one: long-haired short-haired and another (true) short-haired: When looking at those pictures I find it a bit hard to believe that roughs will be rough and smooths will be smooth, there will not be any "inbetween".

Fanna: Jack Mack: How old is Jack Mack's T Bhan Tet and is she in full coat on the picture?

Glenmorangie: Fanna wrote: this is one thing I´ve thought about. Do we HAVE to mix them once in a while to get better coat? This is the matter... As the Smooth Collie needs a thick undercoat to be well protected, it is absolutely necessary to mate those who express this quality. In the case where one of the parents is a bit poor in undercoat (like "very" pure smooths), I think the best is to mate with a rough-factored smooth whose true roughs origins are not too much diluted over the generations. That said, sometimes (often ?), it appears Smooths whose the coat looks rough-factored but the dog itself is a pure Smooth (according to the DNA coat test). Mating them to be sure to get pure Smooths litters with a good undercoat. The third solution is to use Roughs from Smooths since they are registered as smooths most of the time. The future litter will be smooth but rough-factored. The issue of this kind of mating is that these roughs are quite unable to bring new blood within a lineage since they are also born from the same parents than their smooths littermates.... Once again, and as we say in France : "this is the snake which bites its own tail". And the last is, as far as I understood the Icelandic rules about the Collie, to use a Rough lined Collie. This mating will immediately improve the quality and the quantity of the undercoat and especially this will bring true new blood in your Smooth lines. Good idea to pick up pictures from the web. But the disadvantage is that there is no more information about these dogs (i.e. their pedigree.....). Obvioulsy, the first picture shows a true Tervueren. The second picture shows an almost short hair Belgian sheepdog. Without any more information about its pedigree, I surely could not tell if this dog is a Tervueren or a long-haired-factored Malinois or even a mix from both breeds. In order to get any answer, I wrote above : But if, despite this, there still is a visual doubt, it now exists a genetical test for coat length. Maybe shoud I write visual in bold (visual) I don't know the Standard of the Icelandic Sheepdog (very nice dog, by the way), but I imagine that they must be well protected to stand the extrem cold of your country... I only don't understand where is the problem with the coat length while, as you say, this breed has been interbred in all sorts of coats for milleniums, without any appearent health problems Best regards, Françoise

Jack Mack: Jack Mack's Te Bhan Teth was 10 month old on the photo taken in February 2009

Fanna: I only don't understand where is the problem with the coat length while, as you say, this breed has been interbred in all sorts of coats for milleniums, without any appearent health problems Well there isn´t actually any problem. I´m just wondering if the same will happen to the collie if we breed the roughs and the smooths together? As you see on the pictures of the Icelandic dog, the difference in coatlength on roughs and smooths isn´t much, even though genetically they are EITHER rough or smooth. That´s why the thought of the "inbetween" coat has been lurking. There are 2 things that I like a lot about the USA Collies; 1) the difference, in how the roughs and smooths are built, isn´t as much as with the European ones and 2) I like the roughs coatlength better in USA. In my opinion we have gone a bit to far in breeding the coat on the Collie. Of course I see a lot of USA collies with humongous coats but I believe the rough to smooth breeding is the reason for both of this.

JT: In Estonia there haven't been this kind of situation before, but when I asked that guestion on Estonian dog forum, then I was said that Estonian Kennel Club would follow in that kind of situation then the breeds mother land rules.

Glenmorangie: Jack Mack Thank you very much for the info :-)) I really love her and I think this is a great event that she was placed 4th in the Rough section at her very first show could you tell where this show was held and maybe also drop the results on collie-online website ? Fanna Here is the forum link where Jack Mack put three pictures of three of her "T" puppies http://smoothcollie.forum24.ru/?1-4-0-00000068-000-0-0-1236795065 You will see that even the rough-factored Smooth still looks like a Smooth. That said, concerning the Icelandic Sheepdog, transmission of the genes for coat length is *perhaps* different thus the expressed coat is also different. This is just a supposition.... It is possible that each breed including at least two different types of coats react differently from the others breeds As for the US Collie, the similarity in type between roughs and smooths is not difficult to understand as breeders interbred roughs x smooths for centuries. The American Kennel Club considers the Rough and the Smooth Collies as two varieties of the same breed : the Collie. You are quite right when you say that the today rough collie is overcoated/hypercoated (if only there was only this point which is over/hyper.....) and this is completely out of the Coat Point of the Rough Collie Standard. According to it, the coat must be abundant but must fit to the outlines of the body. This means that we should perfectly guess the morphology of the dog under its coat. What are we seeing today ??? Well, you know it.... Best regards, Françoise

Jack Mack: JT so they will do as in the motherland of the breed - creating a vulnerable breed ?

Spiritwind: Hello everyone.. I just joined this group and thought this was a very interesting topic. I am from the USA, and I show and breed both rough and smooth collies... though I personally prefer smooths, I do have both varieties... I have done several rough x smooth breedings and got roughs with great coats. I will post pics of some of my smooths. I currently have a litter due in about 1 wk, but it will be my first all rough litter in a few years. I had a rough x smooth litter last year and a smooth x smooth litter last year... of the two litters I only had 1 rough. When I have gotten roughs from my smooths they always have nice, full, thick coats, with proper length. Anyway... here are some pics.. Ptd. Spiritwind The Man In Black - Cash Cash is from my June 2008 Rough x smooth litter. I need to get some more recent pics of him. He is now 10 months old. The picture above he is 11 wks old -- a rough factored smooth male Now this is Lucy... Ptd. Spiritwind Rumor Has It Lucy is also a rough factored smooth bitch, her sire is my smooth sable, CH HawkEire Flyin Without Wings, out of a rough tri bitch I leased to breed to Zack. Now this is Paris... CH Spiritwind Barely An Angel. She is also rough factored, and her sire is also Zack - CH HawkEire Flyin Without Wings, a smooth sable. Her mother is my rough blue merle bitch, Angie.... This is Blake... He is a Paris son, out of my smooth x smooth litter born Sept. 2008. And this is his sister Bree... Spiritwind Galway Girl Bree placed 3rd in the 6-9 Smooth bitch class at the 2009 Collie Club Of America National specialty show 2 wks ago, out of 16 puppies. This is Kelsey.... She is the dam of Cash, and Paris' littermate... And this is Lindsay... Can CH Armitage Spiritwind Stolen Halo. Lindsay is littermate to Paris and Kelsey (from a smooth sable x rough blue breeding). She was bred by me, but now lives in Canada. She won the open rough blue bitch class at the Collie national specialty a couple weeks ago.! The picture above is of her in the ring... Here is my rough bitch, Amy, who is pregnant and due in about 1 wk. She is out of Kelsey from a 2006 litter I had. Amy - Spiritwind Amaretto This is Kyrie, a litter mate to Blake and Bree. That was, obviously, a smooth blue to smooth sable breeding. Here is the sire... Ben - CH Apple Valley Shades Of Blue. He is the sire of Cash, Blake, Bree and Kyrie and lastly.. this is Zack.. CH HawkEire Flyin Without Wings. He is behind every dog I currently own and is the sire of Paris, Kelsey, Lucy and Lindsay As far as what people here have said about the show grooming/trimming of smooths in the US. Really what is said is not totally correct. Sometimes we will trim up the hair alittle bit, around the neck, just to even it up. But their coat is not cut shorter than it naturally is. Bodies aren't usually touched at all, maybe some trimming of the tuck up just to give them a neater look... but yes... whiskers are trimmed.

Alertness: Hello Spiritwind and welcome to the forum What nice pictures of your lovely collies! I can se that your roughs from smooth/rough matings have a lovely long coat. I prefer smooths myself, and I've already fallen in love with your Cash. Also CH Spiritwind Barely An Angel is I think one of the best built American smooths I've ever seen; what a construction! She seems to have inherited her father's good looks. Berit www.alertnesscollies.com

Spiritwind: Thanks!!! I too, prefer smooths... though as I said before I do have a all rough litter due pretty much any day now! Thanks!! I LOVE Paris (Barely An Angel).. she is my baby and I love her body, and she has wonderful movement! She was such a fun show dog!! I plan to breed her this spring, whenever she decides to come back into season. Her 2 sable kids, Bree and Blake seem to have her body, they just need to grow up and mature. My dogs are slow to mature. I think once they hit about 2-3 yrs of age they will beautiful bodies like she has. Here is a picture of Blake (Paris son) at around 4 months of age. LOVE his body as well! He is a bit off right now, but its just age... he just needs to mature and grow up.... Blake - Spiritwind Guardian Angel - 4 months old I should have Bree's Collie National show picture back soon, I will post it when I get it!

cris: Nice to meet you, Spiritwind!! Welcome in the forum! You have lovely dogs, I like American collies!!

Alertness: Blake is a lovely puppy . Tell me more about your smooths; what are their personalities/temperament like? Are they easy to work with (train)? Berit

Spiritwind: Thanks Berit, My smooths are very easy to train and work with. In years past I used to do more herding and agility than I do now. The sire of Blake, Bree and Cash was a WONDERFUL herding dog in his younger days. He is 8yrs old now and living as a spoiled pet with my mom now... but he was a fun working dog. I also did a lot of obedience and agility training with him. His kids from the 2 litters I had sired by him in 2008 are the most athletic dogs I've ever had. SMART... energetic and for some reason they can jump really high LOL straight up in the air....lol A smooth tri bitch from one of those litters I sold to a show/performance home but I co-own, she, at around 6 months of age passed her herding instinct test, has done alot of obedience and is currently doing WONDERFUL in her Rally classes... as well she has been shown in conformation a few times and taken some reserves. I've gotten a lot of compliments from other breeders on these puppies.... But anyway.. when the dogs are in the house, they think they are lap dogs. Soon as they go outside they turn on and are ready to play and run through the woods and chase eachother and be dogs. They are smart, quick learners and I just love them. They are really up for anything. I've done everything from herding, agility, obedience and conformation with my Collies... I have even done some Flyball training with Paris. Would love to do more when I have the time. Eventually I want to do some agility with Bree and Cash. Bree is small, quick and agile. Cash is fast and athletic...loves to jump.

Alertness: Thanks . Nice to hear that your smooths love to work and are agile and playful. -That's how we like the collies, isn't it; calm indoors and full of fun outdoors! Also fascinating how it is much more common to try collies for herding in the States; would be nice to see more of that here in Europe. Berit

Spiritwind: You are right.. I know several breeders who do herding with their Collies, both roughs and smooths and they do VERY well! I wish I had time to do more working or performance events with mine than I do now.. but someday I will do more, like I used to.

Lisa: "Also fascinating how it is much more common to try collies for herding in the States; would be nice to see more of that here in Europe. " I tried that with Skip and he did quite well. Driving the sheep forward with me next to him was absolutely easy. The problem I had with him was his strong devotion to me, he just couldn't stand to be sent away. For him it was a kind of punishment not to be allowed near me, so he started to get very nervous and barked a lot whenever the sheep were between him and me. As we came to make him herd the sheep towards me, he rushed a lot to get to my side quicker. So we finally stopped this training, it was no fun for him even though his herding instinct was well developed. Now he does well in Obedience and Dogdance, because there he can work right next to me ;-)

Pat Howarth: Hi... I have bred Roughs since 1972, and Smooths for the past 28yrs. I, personally, never wanted the rough/smooth mix because although they're supposed to be two versions of the same breed - if you look at the English dogs, they are not alike. Construction is different, head is different, even temperament is different. I bred two litters last year, a blue to blue litter and a sable to sable litter. The dam of the sable litter has never produced anything other than smooths...some of which have had very tight coats. Non of the others have coats that I would ever consider 'grooming with scissors/knife' to shorten the coat. I beleive you BREED for the tight coat. My blue litter was 4 pups, including a lovely 'smooth' blue dog, who at 3 weeks went fluffy. At 8 weeks i thought he was going to be a rough. At 9 weeks he was sold as a coated smooth. At 6 months he was a very typical SMOOTH COLLIE SHAPE ....beautiful in fact. but his coat is like that of a medium coated border collie with a very bushy tail with fluffy sideburns under his ears at the sides of his head, he is gorgeous. He is registered as a smooth, which is what he was when i sent the paperwork off to the Kennel Club. I would still register him as a smooth because he's not a rough in coat ,shape or temperament. So...you do get 'half coats' in litters. The roughs in the pedigree of both parents is at least 4 generations back. The dam has not produced a 'rough' before but the sire produced one 'half coat' in a litter for his owner a few months prior to my litter being born. That dog has sired quite a few litters and so far has only sired 3 non smooths to my knowledge. What he does sire are beautiful merles..the colour of the pups that i've seen so far, have all been the desired clear silver blue...which is why i used him-as my bitch is sable/merle bred. The quality of his pups is also good. I would not intentionally put sable/merle together now....i bought my bitch in.... but in the past i have done that oin a rough litter, with good results, in my opinion. My blues were loosing the rich sable markings that i wanted in my rough stock, and my bitch had already proved herself to be a superb producer of good coloured stock to any other dog i used. I sold my litter as pets, not to be bred from, and kept a bitch for ME to breed from later, so i had total control over what i'd done. This was over 30 yrs ago. I'd do it again if need be..but i don't think there will be a need with the smooths. In my opinion, the smooths at this time, number for number, are in a better position, for overall qualiy, than the roughs......this is MY opinion. I.ve thought for a long time that smooths , health and structure wise, are superior to the roughs, give or take a few specimens, and have been for years. I remember what the OLD roughs looked like so i can compare. I've no time for fluffy stuffies as some people call the roughs. I have a great deal of time for the smooth collie as this breed is a healthy, elegant, intelligent, loyal, spirited, and totally gorgeous animal, and i'm very proud to be living with 4 of these perfect dogs.

Natalain: Pat Howarth Thank you for your post! It`s interesting! What about GB kennel Club rules now: is you will have rough puppy in litter from smooth parent could you register this puppy as rough?

Spiritwind: Lisa wrote: I, personally, never wanted the rough/smooth mix because although they're supposed to be two versions of the same breed - if you look at the English dogs, they are not alike. Construction is different, head is different, even temperament is different. I bred two litters last year, a blue to blue litter and a sable to sable litter. The dam of the sable litter has never produced anything other than smooths...some of which have had very tight coats. Non of the others have coats that I would ever consider 'grooming with scissors/knife' to shorten the coat. I beleive you BREED for the tight coat. Actually this is very interesting. I very much agree to this! The standard for roughs and smooths is the SAME, except for coat. I also go t a rough collie forum that is based somewhere in Europe. Right off the top of my head I cannot remember where. Anyway, last year I had my rough x smooth litter (5 puppies - 1 rough and 4 smooths) and posted about them on the board. As I said before these are rough collie people. SOOOO many of them posted asking me why in the world I would do such a thing?? Breed a rough to a smooth???? They just didn't understand it, said they were two breeds and the standards were different....... umm, no they aren't. I told them in the US its done often. Almost all the litters I've ever done have been rough x smooth. I think I have done only 3 rough x rough breedings.. and have only done 1 smooth x smooth breeding. I plan to do a smooth x rough breeding this spring, as soon as my smooth bitch decides to come in season! But I agree... in Europe, roughs and smooths do not look a like, even though the standards are the same! In the US and Canada because roughs and smooths have always been bred together, and hopefully ALWAYS will... they look a like! other than coat!.. As far as using scissors on the coats.... here, in North America that is a personal preference. Not everyone does it. When we do it, we don't do it to tighten up the coat. We do it to neaten up the coat.... we never cut off enough to make the coat look shorter or tighter. We want a VERY natural look. Bodies are usually never trimmed, its the necks that are sometimes (by some people) neatened up with trimming. Look at the pictures I've posted, earlier up in this post. None of my dogs have been scissored up to make the coats look tighter. The pictures above are of my puppy totally natural. She has no trimming done to her neck because she didn't need it. She is from my only smooth x smooth breeding I've ever done, so its possible she could be pure for smooth... but I have a feeling she is rough factored.

myrnash: Being new to this group, I have just seen the topic in this forum. In Israel we can breed roughs and smooths, but I am basically the only one breeding smooths, so no one is worried about it. I have done a number of litters of roughs to smooths, or smooths with rough factor - coats have been no problem. No in between coats, the smooths have correct coats, and the roughs do not lack coat at all and have excellent coat texture, nice and strong, not the soft cottony coats we are seeing so much. I had two reasons for bringing in smooths originally and for breeding them with my roughs - to improve the soundness, construction, and movement - you can't hide anything on a smooth! - and to improve the temperament. And I feel that it has been successful. Roughs in a smooths litter are registered here as roughs.

Dianne: Hello Myrnash it is so wonderful to hear of someone who is willing to use smooths to improve their rough collie stock. Its a wonder everyone on the forum hasnt rushed to congratulate you. As usual, I have come rather late to this topic when it seems to have fizzled out, but just in case anyone should still be reading the subject, I would like to repeat something I have said elsewhere on the forum. The problem is that the subjects intertwine and there are topics which overlap. According to several old books on smooth and rough collies, the two were separate breeds or separate varieties with little or no interbreeding until the advent of the show collie. Because of this fact, there is little chance of the smooth, through smooth to smooth breeding, losing his undercoat. The smooth was developed in Northumberland in the north of England on the Scottish borders an area where a dog would have died without his thick undercoat. In Europe, the smooth collie standard is not identical to the rough standard. There are five differences which I have listed in the forum topic Breed Standard Mistakes in the Smooth Collie standard. . Of course, in America, as roughs and smooths are still interbred regularly, the standards are identical. http://smoothcollie.forum24.ru/?1-1-0-00000003-000-40-0#035 Here is an example of an extract on smooth collie history from an American work Excerpt from Working Dogs The Breeds and Standards as recognised by The American Kennel Club 1935. Printed by G. Howard Wyatt, Inc New York Rough and Smooth collies have been identical in form, aside from the coat , for almost three quarters of a century, but there are many reasons for believing that in early days, they were two separate breeds. Few types of dog have been more developed and improvedin appearancethan the Collies, and it is difficult to say just how breeders undertook this task. But it is a matter of record that by 1885, when the first speciality show was held for the breed in England, roughs and smooths often were found in the same litter. Here is an engraving by the artist Sydenham Edwards dating from around 1800. More information can be found about this here http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/SydenhamEdwards/Edwards.html

Spiritwind: Some of you might find this website interesting.... Collies, back to the future Lots of interesting articles about Collies, mainly in the US in the late 1800's.... On that site, there are also links to: 1890 Standard of Excellence, Collie Club (English) English Standard 1890 Standard of Excellence Scottish Collie Club Scottish Standard at that point in time both standards say the only difference between roughs and smooths: "The smooth collie only differs from the rough in its coat, which should be hard, dense, and quite smooth." Dianne wrote: Because of this fact, there is little chance of the smooth, through smooth to smooth breeding, losing his undercoat. The smooth was developed in Northumberland in the north of England on the Scottish borders an area where a dog would have died without his thick undercoat. Totally agree.... I stated something like this a couple months ago, probably on this forum, but possibly on the other forum I go to... and no one seemed to agree at that point. Someone (would have to go look back on older posts) said something about American smooths having to much coat... yet said their smooths (somewhere in Europe) are not good at working in the winter months because they get to cold..... so I replied saying I have NEVER ever seen any of my Smooths get cold, I've never even seen them shiver. A working dog that cannot stand the cold isn't much good... when I lived farther north and we actually got a lot of snow in the winter, my smooths LOVED it.. they loved to run in it, roll in it, and sleep in it! Never one bit cold!

myrnash: In Israel we register them as what they are phenotypically, rough or smooth, can have both in the same litter.

Dianne: This would be my aim if only - but I don't think I would be listened to, and It would mean other breeders understanding the problem and having the motivation to act together. Have been thinking about this problem for some time and would appreciate any advice on how to get people together in sufficient numbers to be able to change a decision taken by our club. Remember that there are only five established smooth breeders in France and some others just starting up or thinking of breeding their bitches "one day". Help please, Dianne

Alertness: Hi Dianne I think you'll need a large portion of luck to make your national breed club decide that puppies born in a smooth litter should be registered as their phenotype; that is rough or smooth. The reason why so few European countries' kennel clubs (and their respective breeding clubs) under the FCI heading is willing to do this, is because the main rule that is followed by most is to always look to the breed's country of origin and what they're doing. Unfortunately for the collie, its country of origin does not want to register roughs from smooth litters, at all! In England they stay unregistered, basically like mongrels and are only considered "pet material". Now, England is not a member of the FCI and doesn't have to answer to its rules; if England had been a member they would not have been allowed to refrain from registering any puppies in a litter: According to the FCI rules ALL puppies in every litter HAS TO be registered. So how does the FCI countries solve the problem with the collie's country of origin refusing to register roughs from smooth litters? They'd like to do what England does, but they can't not register these roughs. So what most do (like Finland and Norway) is registering these puppies as smooths, i.e. as their parents. Funnily enough that makes them eligible for using in the smooth breeding programme, but not in the rough breeding programme! Rather comical and even more tragical in my view. England has also decided that as of 1993-94 it is no longer allowed to interbreed roughs with smooths, and this example is eagerly followed by most European kennel clubs and their national breed clubs, except for Sweden and a few others. The reason Sweden is holding their own for now is that their kennel club chooses to listen to professional geneticists warning them of the smooths gene pool shrinking if the studbooks were to be closed regarding roughs... Now Dianne, if France was to follow Sweden's example and ignore the advice of the collie breed's country of origin no one would be happier than me . I believe the European population of both roughs and smooth would benefit from cross breeding from time to time, and the more countries that allow it the better. But I'm afraid that as long as England is holding back and practising a very strict policy regarding roughs from smooth litters and crossbreeding, most other countries will not have the courage to stand up against them. Because the founders of the breed always knows best, right? Even though "everyone else" in Europe is doing like England in this matter I guess it is not an impossible mission to try presenting your views with the French collie club; if one doesn't give it a shot one won't know whether it would have worked . I was an active participant in a similar campaign in Norway just a couple of years ago, but sadly we lost the battle. Why: The Norwegian Kennel Club chose to listen to the opposition because of one argument only: The only correct action is to always do like the country of origin. Physical and mental health and a healthy gene pool were not important enough arguments it seems Let's hope someone in England "sees the light" eventually and tries to do something about the registration rules of smooths/roughs, only then will the majority of European countries follow Berit

Alertness: In order not to sound too angry, I should add that I do sympatise to a certain degree with those who wants to keep a water tight divide between roughs and smooths, and does not want roughs from smooth litters to be registered as roughs: If the main goal of one's breeding is to keep the type as unisone as possible, introducing roughs from smooth litters into the rough breeding programme might potentially reverse what you have accomplished regarding type. If you've worked hard for excessive coats and a sweet expression for decades you don't really want to destroy that in one generation by using a rough that looks like it just arrived by time-travelling from the 1930's . I wouldn't mind, but then my main goal would not be to keep the expressions as sweet a possible or the coat as big as possible Same goes for smooth breeders: Many do not want to risk introducing more HD to the smooth population, or impair the smooth mentality in any way... Berit

Dianne: Hi Berit - all this is too sadly true. You have expressed the problems extremely clearly. My only thoughts are these - this time travellor from the thirties is the most valuable dog we have to improve rough stock, and, as you say, to bring him back in line with a collie of a more acceptable type (to smooth breeders and a lot of the public too) and to be used to breed with smooth collies in order not to lose any more of the genetic material that is flying out of the pool every time we use the same old dogs over and over for breeding. Well - I want to say a lot more, but we are leaving for a few days holiday and going to see Black's puppies.so I hope to continue this subject a bit later. Dianne

Alertness: I agree with you Dianne. It might mot be impossible, but it's a big challenge to make today's rough collie breeders see this point... Have a nice vacation!

Dianne: Hi Alertness - I don't know if anyone will still read this, but there have been some developments in France. My Blackie fathered a litter with Vive le Vent at Blue Angle Dreams. Both dogs must be rough factored because there was a high proportion of roughs in the litter. Our club allowed these puppies to be registered as roughs. One puppy buyer consulted a judge who said he would never confirm these dogs. (Without confirmation in France, a dog is not registered LOF - Livre des Origines Française)) The people who had reserved the dog asked for their deposit back and refused the puppy - even though they had no intention of showing their puppy. They were just an ordinary family wanting a pet for their daughter. Most pet dogs in France are sold with their birth certificates and are never confirmed.This shows the confusion that exists in France over the registering of puppies - rough or smooth, confirmed or not confirmed. Apparently, there is no law that forbids the confirming of this puppy. Dianne

Lisa: hmm... that's quite confusing so the puppies are registered as roughs and still don't get propper papers?

myrnash: Couldn't you find another judge that would be willing to confirm them? Since there is nothing against it in the rules, it becomes a matter of personal opinion. I think the confirmation is supposed to be on the quality of the dog itself, not on what family it comes from, is this not true?

Alertness: Hi Dianne My question is the same as Myrna's; wouldn't it be possible to find a judge somewhere that would confirm the rough puppies from this litter? By the way, I don't know the French system of registering puppies: When can this confirmation by a judge happen? Does the puppy has to be of a certain age or what? Berit

Glenmorangie: Long time I was not here but I followed your conversations. Alertness wrote: he way, I don't know the French system of registering puppies: When can this confirmation by a judge happen? Does the puppy has to be of a certain age or what? Well, in France matings must be declared with a Mating Certificate mentioning all data about the dam and the sire and the breeder.... This paper must be sent to the French Kennel Club (S.C.C.) in order they establish a customized dossier and once that's done they send other sorts of papers to you : a Birth Declaration paper and a Litter Registering paper. Once pups are born, you must send the Birth Declaration with the number of puppies including the number of males and the number of females, in a delay of 15 days after birth. Later, when puppies are old enough to be tatooed or microchiped and vaccined, you fulfill the Litter Registering paper with the definitive names for each puppy (starting by males) and all other data concerning the puppies and send this to the SCC. They establish a Birth Certificate (which is not the definitive Pedigree) with a first Register (LOF) Number for each puppy of the litter and send them to you. The Confirmation for the Collie (and for many other breeds) happens from the age of 12 months (1 year old) and you present your dog to a FRENCH expert judge with this Birth Certificate and another paper to fulfill. If the dog is good enough according to the Standard, he is Confirmed and the papers are signed by the judge. Then, the owner must send these papers to the SCC which will convert the Birth Certificate to the definitive Pedigree with the complete LOF Number. Then the dog can officially reproduce. I have to say that both parents of the future litter also MUST have their own definitive Pedigree, which means that they also have been Confirmed. This is the most common way to breed officially. If you get an unregistered puppy thus with no paper, you also can make him Confirmed. Other sorts of papers are required and you present your dog in the same way than a Registered puppy. If the dog is good enough (most of the time the dog must be qualified Excellent) he is Confirmed as Initial Registered. You will receive a Pedigree with a complete LOF Number but the paper will be empty concerning the ascendants. The dog can officially reproduce but can no longer be shown. Simple ? Not simple ? myrnash wrote: Couldn't you find another judge that would be willing to confirm them? Possible..... Difficult to say yes or no at this step of information. myrnash wrote: Since there is nothing against it in the rules, it becomes a matter of personal opinion. Right. myrnash wrote: I think the confirmation is supposed to be on the quality of the dog itself, not on what family it comes from, is this not true? True. Best regards, Françoise

Alertness: Thank you for the clarification Francoise! A very interesting registration system you have in France. To me it seems like the strong point of this system is that even unregistered puppies may have a chance of being confirmed and thus be used for breeding, but on the downside the requirements of getting an excellent by the judge seems very strict. You may lose lots of important breeding material that way. Berit

Glenmorangie: Alertness wrote: but on the downside the requirements of getting an excellent by the judge seems very strict. You may lose lots of important breeding material that way. I understand what you mean. A "papered" dog qualified Very Good is also confirmable, even sometimes a dog qualified Good too, depending on its faults (transmissible to the next generation or not). This is the judge who decides according to the Standard, the severity of the fault(s) and the degree of knowledge he/she has of the breed (i.e. my first rough lady was confirmed in 1978 with qualif. Good but the judge was late Mr René Moli and his great experience of the Collie breed (since 1936) allowed my bitch to be confirmed). The greatest advantage of a "papered" puppy is that everyone knows who are the dogs behind, thus that also allows to confirm it with few non transmissible faults. Mr Moli perfectly knew who were the dogs behind my bitch thus he knew how I could use her with proper matings (what I have done well since all her puppies presented to the Confirmation have been confirmed at least Very Good or Excellent ). In the case of an unregistered dog, nobody knows who are the dogs behind, thus there is a risk to introduce some bad genes or hidden transmissible faults into the existing population, despite the fact that this dog may bring good things. In addition, many of these unregistered puppies are born from Pedigreed parents but the "breeder" did not do the necessary to register the litter for some reason. This can lead to an unknown inbreeding if this dog is used. On the other hand, most of unregistered puppies are born from unregistered parents (either because they have never been registered or because they were registered but have been refused at Confirmation because of big faults). This situation can lead to a real dilemma for the judge. The SCC has to manage recognised breeds and decided the qualif. at least Very Good for the Confirmation. On the other hand, the breed clubs have to manage their breed(s) and decide the level of qualif. for unregistered dogs when they are presented to the Confirmation. Depending on the breed and especially the importance of the stock (numberly speaking), each club determines its criteria for unregistered dogs confirmation. As far as I know, all the Smooth Collies in France are registered in an official and recognised stud book. If they are imported, they are first registered in the official stud book of their country of birth. They must successfully pass the Confirmation exam in order to be registered in the French stud book (LOF) to officially reproduce. If they are born in France, breeders simply follow the common way. If some Roughs Collies are born from two Smooths, there is no reason for not to be registered as roughs thus there is no reason for not to be confirmed if they are good enough according to the Standard. Hopefully to have been of any help, Best regards, Françoise

Alertness: Thanks Francoise, I think I understand. To me it looks like in France you actually have what he call "open studbooks" for all breeds, at least in theory. Berit

Dianne: Hi Françoise - that was a really good description of the complicated system in France. I didn't know that puppies "sans papiers"- with no Société Central Canine registrations, could be considered for confirmation. For Blackie's puppies it seems that if a judge found that they conformed to the standard, there is nothing to stop their being confirmed. The big stumbling block would be the quantity of hair. As modern roughs are required to have heavy coats, I wonder if a judge would pass a lightly coated rough smooth? Then, I believe that the status of rough smooths is to be discussed in a future assembly of the comittee. Dianne

Jack Mack: Latest news - our breed club has finally neglected our petition to supply rough collies from smooth parents with proper pedigrees. Now we will go to VDH and try to convince them - if we are able to, the breed clubs will have to follow their decision. Keep your fingers crossed..... Gudrun

Alertness: I'll cross all my fingers and my toes as well Berit

Glenmorangie: Alertness wrote: in France you actually have what he call "open studbooks" That's right And that's the practice But I really don't know if it is still open for all breeds. *Perhaps* there are few exceptions..... I don't know. Anyway the studbook is open for the Collie. Dianne wrote: For Blackie's puppies it seems that if a judge found that they conformed to the standard, there is nothing to stop their being confirmed. The big stumbling block would be the quantity of hair. As modern roughs are required to have heavy coats, I wonder if a judge would pass a lightly coated rough smooth? The Standard says : " Coat : Fits outline of body, very dense. Outer coat straight and harsh to touch, undercoat soft, furry and very close almost hiding the skin; mane and frill very abundant, mask and face smooth, ears smooth at tips, but carrying more hair towards base, front legs well feathered, hindlegs above hocks profusely feathered, but smooth below hock joint. Hair on tail very profuse. " 1) Fits outline of body, very dense -> that means that the coat NEVER mask the lines of the body, and *very dense* does not mean "very long" ! What do we see for two decades ? 2) Outer coat straight and harsh to touch -> that means "straight and harsh", it has been compared to "goat hair". How many judges still take and touch some hairs in its fingers in order to feel its real quality ? 3) undercoat soft, furry and very close almost hiding the skin -> no comment. Or rather yes : the undercoat is now so much long (and abundant) that it almost mixes with the outer coat and even passes *over* the outer coat on certain parts of the body; 4) mane and frill very abundant, mask and face smooth, ears smooth at tips, but carrying more hair towards base -> no comment. However, "very abundant" should be regarded in relativity with the rest of the coat; 5) front legs well feathered -> "well feathered" does not mean "overabundant". What do we see ? 6) hindlegs above hocks profusely feathered, but smooth below hock joint -> "smooth below hock joint" means that the hock must be *smooth*, short haired. What do we see ? Not only abundant hairs where there should not be but also breeders and owners take very care to keep these "out Standard" hairs, just equalizing instead of cut them so that the hock looks *smooth*; 7) Hair on tail very profuse -> no comment. Although I already saw numerous roughs with very poor quantity of hairs on their tail. I let you imagine the resulting look..... The today Standard of the Collie *still* keeps the Rough Collie within a Working Dog vision. Question : what a modern long haired collie still has to do with the Standard ? The Standard IS the Standard otherwise I never could understand why our "Old" collie users did it !!! Breeders MUST know the Standard in order to breed the Collie in the right way, judges MUST *perfectly* know the Standard in order to select and to reward the best Collies they have in their rings the day of the show. Refering to the modern long haired collie for the Confirmation of the Roughs from Smooths Collies is a non-sense. By faulty selection and judging, the Rough Collie mutated to the modern long haired collie. Once again, if a Rough from Smooth Collie is, at last, recognised as a Rough and if this Rough Collie fits to the Standard, there is no reason for it not to be confirmed and, on the point of the coat, the Standard exactly precises the "quantity" - as you say - by the expression "Coat fits outline of body" and the "quality" - as you don't speak - by the expression "straight and harsh". Best regards, Françoise

Glenmorangie: Jack Mack wrote: Latest news - our breed club has finally neglected our petition to supply rough collies from smooth parents with proper pedigrees What is (are) the reason(s) ? Best regards, Françoise

Dianne: This is a case for despair - I was really hoping for a more rational reaction from Germany. that means we have no hope in France and probably none in England either. Dianne

Glenmorangie: Dianne wrote: This is a case for despair - I was really hoping for a more rational reaction from Germany. that means we have no hope in France and probably none in England either. Germany is "only" Germany and this case has nothing to do with other countries. You were writing that the matter is to be discussed within the French club committte, what is already a great advance in the willing to deal with the Rough from Smooths Collies. Please, please, don't anticipate the future French reaction on the basis of the German clubs reaction. In addition, nothing is lost for them since they can appeal near the VDH. We can cross our fingers for THEY win but if there is a victory (I hope so) that will be THE German victory. Dianne, this forum is read by many more French collie people than you believe. If they read or report what you just wrote above, the risk is actually big they decide either to stand by the discussion or, worse, still deny the real existance of the Roughs from Smooths as Roughs. I am sorry for having to say that like that to you but you just upset me, what is bad for my health so early in the morning Best regards and have a good day though Françoise

Dianne: So sorry - I read your last but one post as coming from Gudrun - I must have been half asleep still. Can I delete my post somehow? Dianne

Jack Mack: Francoise, the reason is, we have two stud-books since there are two FCI numbers and so two breeds. Our club states that they can not give a stud-book number of the rough stud-book to a rough from smooth parents. Ok, both stud-books are open too and we could have the roughs from smooth parents - you call it confirmed ? - yes but they would loose the pedigree, here I mean they loose their ancesty, the pedigree would be empty. And we think that they should be worth more than a collie without parents or even collie-similar mixes. Oh, I hope I could make myself understood.....

Glenmorangie: Dianne wrote: Can I delete my post somehow? A Forum is supposed to be the written memory of a cybernetic conversation !!! Technically speaking, forums members has no ability to delete their posts once published. Depending on the "trade mark" of a forum, the unique person who can delete is the Moderator. I don't know if our Moderator Natalain is able to do it. And then, even if she can, I am a bit afraid that these posts have already been read...... Most forums are open to everyone's eyes thus don't need to be a member for reading posts within a forum, everyone can read as 'Guest'. And of course, every member can also read as 'Guest'. And.... this is what happens on The International Smooth Collie Forum Jack Mack wrote: the reason is, we have two stud-books since there are two FCI numbers and so two breeds. Our club states that they can not give a stud-book number of the rough stud-book to a rough from smooth parents. If I understood well what you (or someone else) explained me, there are 2 clubs for the Collie in Germany : the German Collie Club and the British Shepherd Dogs Club of Germany. Each club holds its own stud books, I suppose that, in the case of the Collie, each club manage a Rough and a Smooth Collie studbook. Am I right ? Is there a technical reason in the fact that "they can not give a studbook number to a rough from smooths parents" or is it a "simple" decision from their own ? Jack Mack wrote: Ok, both stud-books are open too and we could have the roughs from smooth parents - you call it confirmed ? - yes but they would loose the pedigree, here I mean they loose their ancesty, the pedigree would be empty If your roughs from smooth parents loose their pedigree's ancestry, they "fall down" in what we, in France, call 'unregistered dogs' - Confirmation has nothing to do with this fact. Confirmation is the possibility for the "papered" dogs to get their complete studbook number (they have an uncomplete studbook number when they are puppies) and for unregistered dogs to get their complete studbook number. This complete studbook number gives dogs the ability to reproduce officially. In France there is a studbook for the Rough Collie and a studbook for the Smooth Collie. There is NO TECHNICAL reason for not registering roughs from smooths parents in the Rough Collie studbook. Jack Mack wrote: And we think that they should be worth more than a collie without parents or even collie-similar mixes All right Best regards, Françoise

Jack Mack: You all know that I am fighting since some time for the rough puppies in smooth litters to get a rough collie pedigree in my country, Germany. Now after our breed clubs have denied them a rough collie pedigree I have placed a petition to the VDH. I have been promised that the matter will be discussed among the VDH officials for breeding. One of my arguments is, that it is handled different in some european countries so they should not insist on FCI rules. Now I have been asked to help by finding out how this matter is been handled in as many as possible european countries. So please if all of you can send me the procedure of handling in your coutries. I have heard that in Sweden the two breeds have now been rejoined, is that true? Thank you so much for your help !! Gudrun from Jack Mack's kennel

Dianne: The situation in France is very unsure. My Black recently sired a litter in which there were quite a number of rough puppies. The breeder was allowed to register the puppies as rough. There has been debate as to whether these puppies are "confirmable"

Dianne: The situation in France is very unsure. My Black recently sired a litter in which there were quite a number of rough puppies. The breeder was allowed to register the puppies as rough. There has been debate as to whether these puppies are "confirmable"

Jack Mack: If the confirmation is done by just evaluating the dog that is presented without taking a look at his papers then it should be ok if the dog looks like a rough collie. But........if the judge knows what parents this dog has, will he be free from prejudice? How is the procedere of confirmation in France?

Lisa: I've already written to you but maybe others will be interested too, so that's how it works in Austria: Rough pups from Smooth litters will be registered with a COK (smooth) Number in the stud book, but it will say on their pedigree that they are Rough collies. They can be shown and bred as Rough Collies with the same rules as a regular Rough and without any limitations. So the only thing that makes them different from "real" Roughs is the different stud book number (COK instead of COL).

Lisa: sorry, that was a double post....

Jack Mack: Thank you Lisa, I hope that we can get something on the way that will possibly influence more kennel clubs to overthink their routine....

Alertness: I like the Austrian registration rules regarding roughs from smooth parents! I wish we had something like that in Norway too. Here roughs from smooth parents have to be registered as smooths and can only be used in smooth breeding. Berit

Lisa: Berit, so you can mate a rough from smooth parents with a smooth?

Alertness: Yes, in reality you can mate a rough from smooth parents with a smooth. Because according to its papers it's a smooth collie . The Collie Club in Norway initially wanted these roughs from smooth parents to be registered with a breeding ban but according to FCI rules it is not allowed to put an automatic breeding ban on a healthy animal! So in Norway the registration rules effectively prevent these roughs to be used for rough breeding but anyone can use them on smooths. Weird Berit

Lisa: That must be very interesting for Gudrun Hartmann! If the FCI permits a breeding ban for healthy animals, it would not be posible to ban a rough from smooth litters just because it is a rough... there would have to be a health issue then or a severe fault in appearance?