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Rough collies in smooth litters: what about documents
Natalain: I`m interesting in it... when in smooth litter you get rough puppies, what about documents for them? As I understan in USA, Australia, Canada you can have documents for puppies as rough collies. In Sweden - too. In Finland they will be registered as smooth. What about rules in other countries for such situation?
Alertness: I'm so happy to see that I'm not alone in thinking that it's a shame that roughs from smooth breedings aren't being registered as roughs in a lot of countries (or rough/smooth matings are prohibitied). I believe the rough breeders are potentially losing out on some very valuable genes by not recognising these collies as "true roughs". But when a certain look is more important than the breed's genetic diversity or general health, this is the end result, unfortunately. But we'll have to be happy that there are still a few countries out there who recognises the collie for what it is. Berit
Natalain: Thanks to all for opinions!!! Tentola wrote: In Europe they are often like too different breeds and what really annoys me is when a Rough breeders says that a particular Smooth is fantastic, but I would think if you were to put a coat on it and call it a Rough Collie they would hate it. Yes... Now in Russia we were try to create rules about registrations of rough from smooth litter and... Almost all people in Kennel club were enough good think about it... except our Rough Collie Club. Modern collies breeders said that it is not collie and we can`t to register them as rough now in Russia So... may be somebody from other countries could help us with it?
cris: Very interesting topic!!! And ...well said, Francoise!!
Jack Mack: I do not understand the officials of the clubs, have they not learned about genetic? By the way, Jack Mack's Tи Bhan Teth, a bitch from smooth parents was placed ex4 in a class among 11 real roughs
Nina: Modern collies breeders said that it is not collie Maybe they're afraid it would become too obvious their "collies" are not collies...? Refer to the standard, it's your most powerful argument. According to the standard, a smooth with a coat shouldn't be any different from the rough. Unfortunately it's quite different in reality for the last 20-30 years... I'm scared to imagine a shaved "modern collie"... I truly hope you'll be able to register your puppies, fingers crossed! Jack Mack, beautiful bitch
cris: Jack Mack wrote: I'm scared to imagine a shaved "modern collie"... Me, too!
Alertness: Natalain wrote: "Modern collies breeders said that it is not collie". It certainly is a collie, but of a different type. I think that's the problem: Many breeders of rough collies today are terribly afraid of diversity. They think that there should only be one type, that every collie should look exactly the same, that everyone should interpret the collie standard exactly the same way. According to some a difference in type is a dangerous thing, that it will ruin the breed, so let's narrow the gene pool even further by linebreeding and inbreeding and only keep the one's that confirm to a very narrow interpretation of the standard... Berit
Glenmorangie: Jack Mack wrote: in America they use scissors not to cut too long hair but to give the dogs a really smooth look, they even cut the whiskers Oh !!! Really ???? Shame on me, I regularly visit a lot of American Collies websites and I have never noticed this "detail"..... Poor Collies, how can they do to feel their environment without these essential organs ???? By the way, Jack Mack's Tи Bhan Teth is quite a fantastic girl (especially with all her whiskers ) . Where was it and who was the judge ? Just an idea : if you come with her once at the French Collie Club Show....... ??? Don't you think this could be a fair experience for the judges ?? Anyway, she seems to smile and to laugh at our headache : she KNOWS she is a ROUGH Collie Nina wrote: I'm scared to imagine a shaved "modern collie"... Don't try to imagine..... Just do it But you know, when their bitches have puppies and they completely shed after that...... they look like (ugly) Smooth Collies Natalain wrote: So... may be somebody from other countries could help us with it? Not from France, I am afraid...... As they also use those who are in your country and as those of your country come from France and England -> "the loop is closed". That said, il seems to me there is a Rough Collie breeder, Tete-A-Tete Kennel (I hope I don't make a mistake with another country...) who breeds some nice Collies. No ? Alertness wrote: I think that's the problem: Many breeders of rough collies today are terribly afraid of diversity. Hmmmm..... Think they just want clones. From the very first day this kind of type appeared in England (I really don't konw HOW they do it ), the "French Rush" started immediately and they have had no cease trying to copy this, generation after generation, exagerating everything bad according to the Standard and judges were confronted to the dilemma : "if I refuse this kind of animal I will be sent packing and won't be invited anymore". This perverse attitude made some very good judges retired from the showring. In addition, as producers (sorry, I can't call them "Breeders") manufactured this handicaped animals, character tests became weaker and weaker to fit to their skull's marmalade. In the 80's, our character tests was quite at the same level than in Finland today, including herding test. Today, character test is split in three parts : a simple "natural" test, the sociability and working ability test and the herding test (the most interesting because it includes many exercices done in the other tests). As only one of these is required for some titles, you imagine well that they do the easiest !!! However, Working and Herding instinct still remains in some Rough Collies (by hazard those who fit closest to the Standard....). Another problem is that as long as they will not want to admit they are wrong, they will stay right in their boots. Admitting to be wrong requires force of courage and humbleness. Today, the British Kennel Club is reviewing 209 Standards whose the one of the Collie, especially the Rough. Reading this Standard, I still find it quite reasonable according to the rules of the breed health. So why reviewing a reasonable Standard ????? I am afraid they change it to fit to the today rough collie This is not the Standard which needs to be reviewed but rather the methods of breeding and selection. How high is the level of the experts' conscience ? I really hope that the Older breeders will butt in what is necessary to change..... Best regards, Françoise
cris: Glenmorangie wrote: I am afraid they change it to fit to the today rough collie This is not the Standard which needs to be reviewed but rather the methods of breeding and selection. I completely agree with you, Francoise!
Twinway: In France, it's exactly the same like in Finland, the "rough" collies puppies are registered like smooth collies puppies. If you want to breed smooth with rough it could be possible, you must absolutely obtain the agrement of the French collie kennel club and the agrement of the French Kennel Club.
Glenmorangie: Hi, So why don't you do this kind of mating ? This would necessarily bring good new blood within our microscopic Smooth population (in the condition to choose True Type Rough, of course) !!! But perhaps it is because these agreements certainly are extremly hard to obtain...... if impossible.... Oh, the Roughs born from Smooths are ROUGHS as they fatally are homozygous for the long hair gene. These Collies should be respected as True Collies and especially True Rough Collies thus they absolutely don't need "" Thank you in advance for them But if, despite this, there still is a visual doubt, it now exists a genetical test for coat length. Results : heterozygous ? the Collie is a Smooth (rough factored) - homozygous long hair ? the Collie IS a ROUGH - homozygous short hair ? the Collie is a Pure Smooth. One of the most important point of the Smooth Collie Standard which SHOULD NOT be neglected concerns the undercoat. It MUST be dense, thick, capable to protect the Collie against the worst weathers. Question : how to keep this vital quality if pure smooths always are bred only together for generations without to create weak, chilly..... in fine unhealthy thus unuseful animals Many, many people today yell they are passionate for the breed(s) they breed. OK (?). Now, how many really do their best to breed according the Standard ? Hmmm.... I surely should not be as passionate as it since I don't yell that I am "passionate", that I always tried to do my best to breed my Collies according to the Standard and still fight for the defence of the True Rough Collie Type (whatever it is born from...) Best regards, Françoise
Fanna: One of the most important point of the Smooth Collie Standard which SHOULD NOT be neglected concerns the undercoat. It MUST be dense, thick, capable to protect the Collie against the worst weathers. Question : how to keep this vital quality if pure smooths always are bred only together for generations without to create weak, chilly..... in fine unhealthy thus unuseful animals this is one thing I´ve thought about. Do we HAVE to mix them once in a while to get better coat? That´s what they say about the Icelandic sheepdog. Long haired and short haired Icelandic Sheepdogs are being mixed all the time and so it has been for a lot of years. Today we know the lh from the sh by the hairs on the tail and around the ears! . I´ve heard that it is the same for the Chihuahua and the Tervueren. I hope it´s ok to post some pictures from the internet to explain what I mean. Tervueren: Tervueren: and the Icelandic one: long-haired short-haired and another (true) short-haired: When looking at those pictures I find it a bit hard to believe that roughs will be rough and smooths will be smooth, there will not be any "inbetween".
Fanna: Jack Mack: How old is Jack Mack's Tи Bhan Tet and is she in full coat on the picture?
Glenmorangie: Fanna wrote: this is one thing I´ve thought about. Do we HAVE to mix them once in a while to get better coat? This is the matter... As the Smooth Collie needs a thick undercoat to be well protected, it is absolutely necessary to mate those who express this quality. In the case where one of the parents is a bit poor in undercoat (like "very" pure smooths), I think the best is to mate with a rough-factored smooth whose true roughs origins are not too much diluted over the generations. That said, sometimes (often ?), it appears Smooths whose the coat looks rough-factored but the dog itself is a pure Smooth (according to the DNA coat test). Mating them to be sure to get pure Smooths litters with a good undercoat. The third solution is to use Roughs from Smooths since they are registered as smooths most of the time. The future litter will be smooth but rough-factored. The issue of this kind of mating is that these roughs are quite unable to bring new blood within a lineage since they are also born from the same parents than their smooths littermates.... Once again, and as we say in France : "this is the snake which bites its own tail". And the last is, as far as I understood the Icelandic rules about the Collie, to use a Rough lined Collie. This mating will immediately improve the quality and the quantity of the undercoat and especially this will bring true new blood in your Smooth lines. Good idea to pick up pictures from the web. But the disadvantage is that there is no more information about these dogs (i.e. their pedigree.....). Obvioulsy, the first picture shows a true Tervueren. The second picture shows an almost short hair Belgian sheepdog. Without any more information about its pedigree, I surely could not tell if this dog is a Tervueren or a long-haired-factored Malinois or even a mix from both breeds. In order to get any answer, I wrote above : But if, despite this, there still is a visual doubt, it now exists a genetical test for coat length. Maybe shoud I write visual in bold (visual) I don't know the Standard of the Icelandic Sheepdog (very nice dog, by the way), but I imagine that they must be well protected to stand the extrem cold of your country... I only don't understand where is the problem with the coat length while, as you say, this breed has been interbred in all sorts of coats for milleniums, without any appearent health problems Best regards, Françoise
Jack Mack: Jack Mack's Te Bhan Teth was 10 month old on the photo taken in February 2009
Fanna: I only don't understand where is the problem with the coat length while, as you say, this breed has been interbred in all sorts of coats for milleniums, without any appearent health problems Well there isn´t actually any problem. I´m just wondering if the same will happen to the collie if we breed the roughs and the smooths together? As you see on the pictures of the Icelandic dog, the difference in coatlength on roughs and smooths isn´t much, even though genetically they are EITHER rough or smooth. That´s why the thought of the "inbetween" coat has been lurking. There are 2 things that I like a lot about the USA Collies; 1) the difference, in how the roughs and smooths are built, isn´t as much as with the European ones and 2) I like the roughs coatlength better in USA. In my opinion we have gone a bit to far in breeding the coat on the Collie. Of course I see a lot of USA collies with humongous coats but I believe the rough to smooth breeding is the reason for both of this.
JT: In Estonia there haven't been this kind of situation before, but when I asked that guestion on Estonian dog forum, then I was said that Estonian Kennel Club would follow in that kind of situation then the breeds mother land rules.
Glenmorangie: Jack Mack Thank you very much for the info :-)) I really love her and I think this is a great event that she was placed 4th in the Rough section at her very first show could you tell where this show was held and maybe also drop the results on collie-online website ? Fanna Here is the forum link where Jack Mack put three pictures of three of her "T" puppies http://smoothcollie.forum24.ru/?1-4-0-00000068-000-0-0-1236795065 You will see that even the rough-factored Smooth still looks like a Smooth. That said, concerning the Icelandic Sheepdog, transmission of the genes for coat length is *perhaps* different thus the expressed coat is also different. This is just a supposition.... It is possible that each breed including at least two different types of coats react differently from the others breeds As for the US Collie, the similarity in type between roughs and smooths is not difficult to understand as breeders interbred roughs x smooths for centuries. The American Kennel Club considers the Rough and the Smooth Collies as two varieties of the same breed : the Collie. You are quite right when you say that the today rough collie is overcoated/hypercoated (if only there was only this point which is over/hyper.....) and this is completely out of the Coat Point of the Rough Collie Standard. According to it, the coat must be abundant but must fit to the outlines of the body. This means that we should perfectly guess the morphology of the dog under its coat. What are we seeing today ??? Well, you know it.... Best regards, Françoise
Jack Mack: JT so they will do as in the motherland of the breed - creating a vulnerable breed ?
Spiritwind: Hello everyone.. I just joined this group and thought this was a very interesting topic. I am from the USA, and I show and breed both rough and smooth collies... though I personally prefer smooths, I do have both varieties... I have done several rough x smooth breedings and got roughs with great coats. I will post pics of some of my smooths. I currently have a litter due in about 1 wk, but it will be my first all rough litter in a few years. I had a rough x smooth litter last year and a smooth x smooth litter last year... of the two litters I only had 1 rough. When I have gotten roughs from my smooths they always have nice, full, thick coats, with proper length. Anyway... here are some pics.. Ptd. Spiritwind The Man In Black - Cash Cash is from my June 2008 Rough x smooth litter. I need to get some more recent pics of him. He is now 10 months old. The picture above he is 11 wks old -- a rough factored smooth male Now this is Lucy... Ptd. Spiritwind Rumor Has It Lucy is also a rough factored smooth bitch, her sire is my smooth sable, CH HawkEire Flyin Without Wings, out of a rough tri bitch I leased to breed to Zack. Now this is Paris... CH Spiritwind Barely An Angel. She is also rough factored, and her sire is also Zack - CH HawkEire Flyin Without Wings, a smooth sable. Her mother is my rough blue merle bitch, Angie.... This is Blake... He is a Paris son, out of my smooth x smooth litter born Sept. 2008. And this is his sister Bree... Spiritwind Galway Girl Bree placed 3rd in the 6-9 Smooth bitch class at the 2009 Collie Club Of America National specialty show 2 wks ago, out of 16 puppies. This is Kelsey.... She is the dam of Cash, and Paris' littermate... And this is Lindsay... Can CH Armitage Spiritwind Stolen Halo. Lindsay is littermate to Paris and Kelsey (from a smooth sable x rough blue breeding). She was bred by me, but now lives in Canada. She won the open rough blue bitch class at the Collie national specialty a couple weeks ago.! The picture above is of her in the ring... Here is my rough bitch, Amy, who is pregnant and due in about 1 wk. She is out of Kelsey from a 2006 litter I had. Amy - Spiritwind Amaretto This is Kyrie, a litter mate to Blake and Bree. That was, obviously, a smooth blue to smooth sable breeding. Here is the sire... Ben - CH Apple Valley Shades Of Blue. He is the sire of Cash, Blake, Bree and Kyrie and lastly.. this is Zack.. CH HawkEire Flyin Without Wings. He is behind every dog I currently own and is the sire of Paris, Kelsey, Lucy and Lindsay As far as what people here have said about the show grooming/trimming of smooths in the US. Really what is said is not totally correct. Sometimes we will trim up the hair alittle bit, around the neck, just to even it up. But their coat is not cut shorter than it naturally is. Bodies aren't usually touched at all, maybe some trimming of the tuck up just to give them a neater look... but yes... whiskers are trimmed.
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