Breeding Rough collies in smooth litters: what about documents

Rough collies in smooth litters: what about documents

Natalain: I`m interesting in it... when in smooth litter you get rough puppies, what about documents for them? As I understan in USA, Australia, Canada you can have documents for puppies as rough collies. In Sweden - too. In Finland they will be registered as smooth. What about rules in other countries for such situation?

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Alertness: Hello Spiritwind and welcome to the forum What nice pictures of your lovely collies! I can se that your roughs from smooth/rough matings have a lovely long coat. I prefer smooths myself, and I've already fallen in love with your Cash. Also CH Spiritwind Barely An Angel is I think one of the best built American smooths I've ever seen; what a construction! She seems to have inherited her father's good looks. Berit www.alertnesscollies.com

Spiritwind: Thanks!!! I too, prefer smooths... though as I said before I do have a all rough litter due pretty much any day now! Thanks!! I LOVE Paris (Barely An Angel).. she is my baby and I love her body, and she has wonderful movement! She was such a fun show dog!! I plan to breed her this spring, whenever she decides to come back into season. Her 2 sable kids, Bree and Blake seem to have her body, they just need to grow up and mature. My dogs are slow to mature. I think once they hit about 2-3 yrs of age they will beautiful bodies like she has. Here is a picture of Blake (Paris son) at around 4 months of age. LOVE his body as well! He is a bit off right now, but its just age... he just needs to mature and grow up.... Blake - Spiritwind Guardian Angel - 4 months old I should have Bree's Collie National show picture back soon, I will post it when I get it!

cris: Nice to meet you, Spiritwind!! Welcome in the forum! You have lovely dogs, I like American collies!!

Alertness: Blake is a lovely puppy . Tell me more about your smooths; what are their personalities/temperament like? Are they easy to work with (train)? Berit

Spiritwind: Thanks Berit, My smooths are very easy to train and work with. In years past I used to do more herding and agility than I do now. The sire of Blake, Bree and Cash was a WONDERFUL herding dog in his younger days. He is 8yrs old now and living as a spoiled pet with my mom now... but he was a fun working dog. I also did a lot of obedience and agility training with him. His kids from the 2 litters I had sired by him in 2008 are the most athletic dogs I've ever had. SMART... energetic and for some reason they can jump really high LOL straight up in the air....lol A smooth tri bitch from one of those litters I sold to a show/performance home but I co-own, she, at around 6 months of age passed her herding instinct test, has done alot of obedience and is currently doing WONDERFUL in her Rally classes... as well she has been shown in conformation a few times and taken some reserves. I've gotten a lot of compliments from other breeders on these puppies.... But anyway.. when the dogs are in the house, they think they are lap dogs. Soon as they go outside they turn on and are ready to play and run through the woods and chase eachother and be dogs. They are smart, quick learners and I just love them. They are really up for anything. I've done everything from herding, agility, obedience and conformation with my Collies... I have even done some Flyball training with Paris. Would love to do more when I have the time. Eventually I want to do some agility with Bree and Cash. Bree is small, quick and agile. Cash is fast and athletic...loves to jump.

Alertness: Thanks . Nice to hear that your smooths love to work and are agile and playful. -That's how we like the collies, isn't it; calm indoors and full of fun outdoors! Also fascinating how it is much more common to try collies for herding in the States; would be nice to see more of that here in Europe. Berit

Spiritwind: You are right.. I know several breeders who do herding with their Collies, both roughs and smooths and they do VERY well! I wish I had time to do more working or performance events with mine than I do now.. but someday I will do more, like I used to.

Lisa: "Also fascinating how it is much more common to try collies for herding in the States; would be nice to see more of that here in Europe. " I tried that with Skip and he did quite well. Driving the sheep forward with me next to him was absolutely easy. The problem I had with him was his strong devotion to me, he just couldn't stand to be sent away. For him it was a kind of punishment not to be allowed near me, so he started to get very nervous and barked a lot whenever the sheep were between him and me. As we came to make him herd the sheep towards me, he rushed a lot to get to my side quicker. So we finally stopped this training, it was no fun for him even though his herding instinct was well developed. Now he does well in Obedience and Dogdance, because there he can work right next to me ;-)

Pat Howarth: Hi... I have bred Roughs since 1972, and Smooths for the past 28yrs. I, personally, never wanted the rough/smooth mix because although they're supposed to be two versions of the same breed - if you look at the English dogs, they are not alike. Construction is different, head is different, even temperament is different. I bred two litters last year, a blue to blue litter and a sable to sable litter. The dam of the sable litter has never produced anything other than smooths...some of which have had very tight coats. Non of the others have coats that I would ever consider 'grooming with scissors/knife' to shorten the coat. I beleive you BREED for the tight coat. My blue litter was 4 pups, including a lovely 'smooth' blue dog, who at 3 weeks went fluffy. At 8 weeks i thought he was going to be a rough. At 9 weeks he was sold as a coated smooth. At 6 months he was a very typical SMOOTH COLLIE SHAPE ....beautiful in fact. but his coat is like that of a medium coated border collie with a very bushy tail with fluffy sideburns under his ears at the sides of his head, he is gorgeous. He is registered as a smooth, which is what he was when i sent the paperwork off to the Kennel Club. I would still register him as a smooth because he's not a rough in coat ,shape or temperament. So...you do get 'half coats' in litters. The roughs in the pedigree of both parents is at least 4 generations back. The dam has not produced a 'rough' before but the sire produced one 'half coat' in a litter for his owner a few months prior to my litter being born. That dog has sired quite a few litters and so far has only sired 3 non smooths to my knowledge. What he does sire are beautiful merles..the colour of the pups that i've seen so far, have all been the desired clear silver blue...which is why i used him-as my bitch is sable/merle bred. The quality of his pups is also good. I would not intentionally put sable/merle together now....i bought my bitch in.... but in the past i have done that oin a rough litter, with good results, in my opinion. My blues were loosing the rich sable markings that i wanted in my rough stock, and my bitch had already proved herself to be a superb producer of good coloured stock to any other dog i used. I sold my litter as pets, not to be bred from, and kept a bitch for ME to breed from later, so i had total control over what i'd done. This was over 30 yrs ago. I'd do it again if need be..but i don't think there will be a need with the smooths. In my opinion, the smooths at this time, number for number, are in a better position, for overall qualiy, than the roughs......this is MY opinion. I.ve thought for a long time that smooths , health and structure wise, are superior to the roughs, give or take a few specimens, and have been for years. I remember what the OLD roughs looked like so i can compare. I've no time for fluffy stuffies as some people call the roughs. I have a great deal of time for the smooth collie as this breed is a healthy, elegant, intelligent, loyal, spirited, and totally gorgeous animal, and i'm very proud to be living with 4 of these perfect dogs.

Natalain: Pat Howarth Thank you for your post! It`s interesting! What about GB kennel Club rules now: is you will have rough puppy in litter from smooth parent could you register this puppy as rough?

Spiritwind: Lisa wrote: I, personally, never wanted the rough/smooth mix because although they're supposed to be two versions of the same breed - if you look at the English dogs, they are not alike. Construction is different, head is different, even temperament is different. I bred two litters last year, a blue to blue litter and a sable to sable litter. The dam of the sable litter has never produced anything other than smooths...some of which have had very tight coats. Non of the others have coats that I would ever consider 'grooming with scissors/knife' to shorten the coat. I beleive you BREED for the tight coat. Actually this is very interesting. I very much agree to this! The standard for roughs and smooths is the SAME, except for coat. I also go t a rough collie forum that is based somewhere in Europe. Right off the top of my head I cannot remember where. Anyway, last year I had my rough x smooth litter (5 puppies - 1 rough and 4 smooths) and posted about them on the board. As I said before these are rough collie people. SOOOO many of them posted asking me why in the world I would do such a thing?? Breed a rough to a smooth???? They just didn't understand it, said they were two breeds and the standards were different....... umm, no they aren't. I told them in the US its done often. Almost all the litters I've ever done have been rough x smooth. I think I have done only 3 rough x rough breedings.. and have only done 1 smooth x smooth breeding. I plan to do a smooth x rough breeding this spring, as soon as my smooth bitch decides to come in season! But I agree... in Europe, roughs and smooths do not look a like, even though the standards are the same! In the US and Canada because roughs and smooths have always been bred together, and hopefully ALWAYS will... they look a like! other than coat!.. As far as using scissors on the coats.... here, in North America that is a personal preference. Not everyone does it. When we do it, we don't do it to tighten up the coat. We do it to neaten up the coat.... we never cut off enough to make the coat look shorter or tighter. We want a VERY natural look. Bodies are usually never trimmed, its the necks that are sometimes (by some people) neatened up with trimming. Look at the pictures I've posted, earlier up in this post. None of my dogs have been scissored up to make the coats look tighter. The pictures above are of my puppy totally natural. She has no trimming done to her neck because she didn't need it. She is from my only smooth x smooth breeding I've ever done, so its possible she could be pure for smooth... but I have a feeling she is rough factored.

myrnash: Being new to this group, I have just seen the topic in this forum. In Israel we can breed roughs and smooths, but I am basically the only one breeding smooths, so no one is worried about it. I have done a number of litters of roughs to smooths, or smooths with rough factor - coats have been no problem. No in between coats, the smooths have correct coats, and the roughs do not lack coat at all and have excellent coat texture, nice and strong, not the soft cottony coats we are seeing so much. I had two reasons for bringing in smooths originally and for breeding them with my roughs - to improve the soundness, construction, and movement - you can't hide anything on a smooth! - and to improve the temperament. And I feel that it has been successful. Roughs in a smooths litter are registered here as roughs.

Dianne: Hello Myrnash it is so wonderful to hear of someone who is willing to use smooths to improve their rough collie stock. Its a wonder everyone on the forum hasnt rushed to congratulate you. As usual, I have come rather late to this topic when it seems to have fizzled out, but just in case anyone should still be reading the subject, I would like to repeat something I have said elsewhere on the forum. The problem is that the subjects intertwine and there are topics which overlap. According to several old books on smooth and rough collies, the two were separate breeds or separate varieties with little or no interbreeding until the advent of the show collie. Because of this fact, there is little chance of the smooth, through smooth to smooth breeding, losing his undercoat. The smooth was developed in Northumberland in the north of England on the Scottish borders an area where a dog would have died without his thick undercoat. In Europe, the smooth collie standard is not identical to the rough standard. There are five differences which I have listed in the forum topic Breed Standard Mistakes in the Smooth Collie standard. . Of course, in America, as roughs and smooths are still interbred regularly, the standards are identical. http://smoothcollie.forum24.ru/?1-1-0-00000003-000-40-0#035 Here is an example of an extract on smooth collie history from an American work Excerpt from Working Dogs The Breeds and Standards as recognised by The American Kennel Club 1935. Printed by G. Howard Wyatt, Inc New York Rough and Smooth collies have been identical in form, aside from the coat , for almost three quarters of a century, but there are many reasons for believing that in early days, they were two separate breeds. Few types of dog have been more developed and improvedin appearancethan the Collies, and it is difficult to say just how breeders undertook this task. But it is a matter of record that by 1885, when the first speciality show was held for the breed in England, roughs and smooths often were found in the same litter. Here is an engraving by the artist Sydenham Edwards dating from around 1800. More information can be found about this here http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/SydenhamEdwards/Edwards.html

Spiritwind: Some of you might find this website interesting.... Collies, back to the future Lots of interesting articles about Collies, mainly in the US in the late 1800's.... On that site, there are also links to: 1890 Standard of Excellence, Collie Club (English) English Standard 1890 Standard of Excellence Scottish Collie Club Scottish Standard at that point in time both standards say the only difference between roughs and smooths: "The smooth collie only differs from the rough in its coat, which should be hard, dense, and quite smooth." Dianne wrote: Because of this fact, there is little chance of the smooth, through smooth to smooth breeding, losing his undercoat. The smooth was developed in Northumberland in the north of England on the Scottish borders an area where a dog would have died without his thick undercoat. Totally agree.... I stated something like this a couple months ago, probably on this forum, but possibly on the other forum I go to... and no one seemed to agree at that point. Someone (would have to go look back on older posts) said something about American smooths having to much coat... yet said their smooths (somewhere in Europe) are not good at working in the winter months because they get to cold..... so I replied saying I have NEVER ever seen any of my Smooths get cold, I've never even seen them shiver. A working dog that cannot stand the cold isn't much good... when I lived farther north and we actually got a lot of snow in the winter, my smooths LOVED it.. they loved to run in it, roll in it, and sleep in it! Never one bit cold!

myrnash: In Israel we register them as what they are phenotypically, rough or smooth, can have both in the same litter.

Dianne: This would be my aim if only - but I don't think I would be listened to, and It would mean other breeders understanding the problem and having the motivation to act together. Have been thinking about this problem for some time and would appreciate any advice on how to get people together in sufficient numbers to be able to change a decision taken by our club. Remember that there are only five established smooth breeders in France and some others just starting up or thinking of breeding their bitches "one day". Help please, Dianne

Alertness: Hi Dianne I think you'll need a large portion of luck to make your national breed club decide that puppies born in a smooth litter should be registered as their phenotype; that is rough or smooth. The reason why so few European countries' kennel clubs (and their respective breeding clubs) under the FCI heading is willing to do this, is because the main rule that is followed by most is to always look to the breed's country of origin and what they're doing. Unfortunately for the collie, its country of origin does not want to register roughs from smooth litters, at all! In England they stay unregistered, basically like mongrels and are only considered "pet material". Now, England is not a member of the FCI and doesn't have to answer to its rules; if England had been a member they would not have been allowed to refrain from registering any puppies in a litter: According to the FCI rules ALL puppies in every litter HAS TO be registered. So how does the FCI countries solve the problem with the collie's country of origin refusing to register roughs from smooth litters? They'd like to do what England does, but they can't not register these roughs. So what most do (like Finland and Norway) is registering these puppies as smooths, i.e. as their parents. Funnily enough that makes them eligible for using in the smooth breeding programme, but not in the rough breeding programme! Rather comical and even more tragical in my view. England has also decided that as of 1993-94 it is no longer allowed to interbreed roughs with smooths, and this example is eagerly followed by most European kennel clubs and their national breed clubs, except for Sweden and a few others. The reason Sweden is holding their own for now is that their kennel club chooses to listen to professional geneticists warning them of the smooths gene pool shrinking if the studbooks were to be closed regarding roughs... Now Dianne, if France was to follow Sweden's example and ignore the advice of the collie breed's country of origin no one would be happier than me . I believe the European population of both roughs and smooth would benefit from cross breeding from time to time, and the more countries that allow it the better. But I'm afraid that as long as England is holding back and practising a very strict policy regarding roughs from smooth litters and crossbreeding, most other countries will not have the courage to stand up against them. Because the founders of the breed always knows best, right? Even though "everyone else" in Europe is doing like England in this matter I guess it is not an impossible mission to try presenting your views with the French collie club; if one doesn't give it a shot one won't know whether it would have worked . I was an active participant in a similar campaign in Norway just a couple of years ago, but sadly we lost the battle. Why: The Norwegian Kennel Club chose to listen to the opposition because of one argument only: The only correct action is to always do like the country of origin. Physical and mental health and a healthy gene pool were not important enough arguments it seems Let's hope someone in England "sees the light" eventually and tries to do something about the registration rules of smooths/roughs, only then will the majority of European countries follow Berit

Alertness: In order not to sound too angry, I should add that I do sympatise to a certain degree with those who wants to keep a water tight divide between roughs and smooths, and does not want roughs from smooth litters to be registered as roughs: If the main goal of one's breeding is to keep the type as unisone as possible, introducing roughs from smooth litters into the rough breeding programme might potentially reverse what you have accomplished regarding type. If you've worked hard for excessive coats and a sweet expression for decades you don't really want to destroy that in one generation by using a rough that looks like it just arrived by time-travelling from the 1930's . I wouldn't mind, but then my main goal would not be to keep the expressions as sweet a possible or the coat as big as possible Same goes for smooth breeders: Many do not want to risk introducing more HD to the smooth population, or impair the smooth mentality in any way... Berit

Dianne: Hi Berit - all this is too sadly true. You have expressed the problems extremely clearly. My only thoughts are these - this time travellor from the thirties is the most valuable dog we have to improve rough stock, and, as you say, to bring him back in line with a collie of a more acceptable type (to smooth breeders and a lot of the public too) and to be used to breed with smooth collies in order not to lose any more of the genetic material that is flying out of the pool every time we use the same old dogs over and over for breeding. Well - I want to say a lot more, but we are leaving for a few days holiday and going to see Black's puppies.so I hope to continue this subject a bit later. Dianne

Alertness: I agree with you Dianne. It might mot be impossible, but it's a big challenge to make today's rough collie breeders see this point... Have a nice vacation!