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Rough collies in smooth litters: what about documents
Natalain: I`m interesting in it... when in smooth litter you get rough puppies, what about documents for them? As I understan in USA, Australia, Canada you can have documents for puppies as rough collies. In Sweden - too. In Finland they will be registered as smooth. What about rules in other countries for such situation?
Dianne: Hi Alertness - I don't know if anyone will still read this, but there have been some developments in France. My Blackie fathered a litter with Vive le Vent at Blue Angle Dreams. Both dogs must be rough factored because there was a high proportion of roughs in the litter. Our club allowed these puppies to be registered as roughs. One puppy buyer consulted a judge who said he would never confirm these dogs. (Without confirmation in France, a dog is not registered LOF - Livre des Origines Française)) The people who had reserved the dog asked for their deposit back and refused the puppy - even though they had no intention of showing their puppy. They were just an ordinary family wanting a pet for their daughter. Most pet dogs in France are sold with their birth certificates and are never confirmed.This shows the confusion that exists in France over the registering of puppies - rough or smooth, confirmed or not confirmed. Apparently, there is no law that forbids the confirming of this puppy. Dianne
Lisa: hmm... that's quite confusing so the puppies are registered as roughs and still don't get propper papers?
myrnash: Couldn't you find another judge that would be willing to confirm them? Since there is nothing against it in the rules, it becomes a matter of personal opinion. I think the confirmation is supposed to be on the quality of the dog itself, not on what family it comes from, is this not true?
Alertness: Hi Dianne My question is the same as Myrna's; wouldn't it be possible to find a judge somewhere that would confirm the rough puppies from this litter? By the way, I don't know the French system of registering puppies: When can this confirmation by a judge happen? Does the puppy has to be of a certain age or what? Berit
Glenmorangie: Long time I was not here but I followed your conversations. Alertness wrote: he way, I don't know the French system of registering puppies: When can this confirmation by a judge happen? Does the puppy has to be of a certain age or what? Well, in France matings must be declared with a Mating Certificate mentioning all data about the dam and the sire and the breeder.... This paper must be sent to the French Kennel Club (S.C.C.) in order they establish a customized dossier and once that's done they send other sorts of papers to you : a Birth Declaration paper and a Litter Registering paper. Once pups are born, you must send the Birth Declaration with the number of puppies including the number of males and the number of females, in a delay of 15 days after birth. Later, when puppies are old enough to be tatooed or microchiped and vaccined, you fulfill the Litter Registering paper with the definitive names for each puppy (starting by males) and all other data concerning the puppies and send this to the SCC. They establish a Birth Certificate (which is not the definitive Pedigree) with a first Register (LOF) Number for each puppy of the litter and send them to you. The Confirmation for the Collie (and for many other breeds) happens from the age of 12 months (1 year old) and you present your dog to a FRENCH expert judge with this Birth Certificate and another paper to fulfill. If the dog is good enough according to the Standard, he is Confirmed and the papers are signed by the judge. Then, the owner must send these papers to the SCC which will convert the Birth Certificate to the definitive Pedigree with the complete LOF Number. Then the dog can officially reproduce. I have to say that both parents of the future litter also MUST have their own definitive Pedigree, which means that they also have been Confirmed. This is the most common way to breed officially. If you get an unregistered puppy thus with no paper, you also can make him Confirmed. Other sorts of papers are required and you present your dog in the same way than a Registered puppy. If the dog is good enough (most of the time the dog must be qualified Excellent) he is Confirmed as Initial Registered. You will receive a Pedigree with a complete LOF Number but the paper will be empty concerning the ascendants. The dog can officially reproduce but can no longer be shown. Simple ? Not simple ? myrnash wrote: Couldn't you find another judge that would be willing to confirm them? Possible..... Difficult to say yes or no at this step of information. myrnash wrote: Since there is nothing against it in the rules, it becomes a matter of personal opinion. Right. myrnash wrote: I think the confirmation is supposed to be on the quality of the dog itself, not on what family it comes from, is this not true? True. Best regards, Françoise
Alertness: Thank you for the clarification Francoise! A very interesting registration system you have in France. To me it seems like the strong point of this system is that even unregistered puppies may have a chance of being confirmed and thus be used for breeding, but on the downside the requirements of getting an excellent by the judge seems very strict. You may lose lots of important breeding material that way. Berit
Glenmorangie: Alertness wrote: but on the downside the requirements of getting an excellent by the judge seems very strict. You may lose lots of important breeding material that way. I understand what you mean. A "papered" dog qualified Very Good is also confirmable, even sometimes a dog qualified Good too, depending on its faults (transmissible to the next generation or not). This is the judge who decides according to the Standard, the severity of the fault(s) and the degree of knowledge he/she has of the breed (i.e. my first rough lady was confirmed in 1978 with qualif. Good but the judge was late Mr René Moli and his great experience of the Collie breed (since 1936) allowed my bitch to be confirmed). The greatest advantage of a "papered" puppy is that everyone knows who are the dogs behind, thus that also allows to confirm it with few non transmissible faults. Mr Moli perfectly knew who were the dogs behind my bitch thus he knew how I could use her with proper matings (what I have done well since all her puppies presented to the Confirmation have been confirmed at least Very Good or Excellent ). In the case of an unregistered dog, nobody knows who are the dogs behind, thus there is a risk to introduce some bad genes or hidden transmissible faults into the existing population, despite the fact that this dog may bring good things. In addition, many of these unregistered puppies are born from Pedigreed parents but the "breeder" did not do the necessary to register the litter for some reason. This can lead to an unknown inbreeding if this dog is used. On the other hand, most of unregistered puppies are born from unregistered parents (either because they have never been registered or because they were registered but have been refused at Confirmation because of big faults). This situation can lead to a real dilemma for the judge. The SCC has to manage recognised breeds and decided the qualif. at least Very Good for the Confirmation. On the other hand, the breed clubs have to manage their breed(s) and decide the level of qualif. for unregistered dogs when they are presented to the Confirmation. Depending on the breed and especially the importance of the stock (numberly speaking), each club determines its criteria for unregistered dogs confirmation. As far as I know, all the Smooth Collies in France are registered in an official and recognised stud book. If they are imported, they are first registered in the official stud book of their country of birth. They must successfully pass the Confirmation exam in order to be registered in the French stud book (LOF) to officially reproduce. If they are born in France, breeders simply follow the common way. If some Roughs Collies are born from two Smooths, there is no reason for not to be registered as roughs thus there is no reason for not to be confirmed if they are good enough according to the Standard. Hopefully to have been of any help, Best regards, Françoise
Alertness: Thanks Francoise, I think I understand. To me it looks like in France you actually have what he call "open studbooks" for all breeds, at least in theory. Berit
Dianne: Hi Françoise - that was a really good description of the complicated system in France. I didn't know that puppies "sans papiers"- with no Société Central Canine registrations, could be considered for confirmation. For Blackie's puppies it seems that if a judge found that they conformed to the standard, there is nothing to stop their being confirmed. The big stumbling block would be the quantity of hair. As modern roughs are required to have heavy coats, I wonder if a judge would pass a lightly coated rough smooth? Then, I believe that the status of rough smooths is to be discussed in a future assembly of the comittee. Dianne
Jack Mack: Latest news - our breed club has finally neglected our petition to supply rough collies from smooth parents with proper pedigrees. Now we will go to VDH and try to convince them - if we are able to, the breed clubs will have to follow their decision. Keep your fingers crossed..... Gudrun
Alertness: I'll cross all my fingers and my toes as well Berit
Glenmorangie: Alertness wrote: in France you actually have what he call "open studbooks" That's right And that's the practice But I really don't know if it is still open for all breeds. *Perhaps* there are few exceptions..... I don't know. Anyway the studbook is open for the Collie. Dianne wrote: For Blackie's puppies it seems that if a judge found that they conformed to the standard, there is nothing to stop their being confirmed. The big stumbling block would be the quantity of hair. As modern roughs are required to have heavy coats, I wonder if a judge would pass a lightly coated rough smooth? The Standard says : " Coat : Fits outline of body, very dense. Outer coat straight and harsh to touch, undercoat soft, furry and very close almost hiding the skin; mane and frill very abundant, mask and face smooth, ears smooth at tips, but carrying more hair towards base, front legs well feathered, hindlegs above hocks profusely feathered, but smooth below hock joint. Hair on tail very profuse. " 1) Fits outline of body, very dense -> that means that the coat NEVER mask the lines of the body, and *very dense* does not mean "very long" ! What do we see for two decades ? 2) Outer coat straight and harsh to touch -> that means "straight and harsh", it has been compared to "goat hair". How many judges still take and touch some hairs in its fingers in order to feel its real quality ? 3) undercoat soft, furry and very close almost hiding the skin -> no comment. Or rather yes : the undercoat is now so much long (and abundant) that it almost mixes with the outer coat and even passes *over* the outer coat on certain parts of the body; 4) mane and frill very abundant, mask and face smooth, ears smooth at tips, but carrying more hair towards base -> no comment. However, "very abundant" should be regarded in relativity with the rest of the coat; 5) front legs well feathered -> "well feathered" does not mean "overabundant". What do we see ? 6) hindlegs above hocks profusely feathered, but smooth below hock joint -> "smooth below hock joint" means that the hock must be *smooth*, short haired. What do we see ? Not only abundant hairs where there should not be but also breeders and owners take very care to keep these "out Standard" hairs, just equalizing instead of cut them so that the hock looks *smooth*; 7) Hair on tail very profuse -> no comment. Although I already saw numerous roughs with very poor quantity of hairs on their tail. I let you imagine the resulting look..... The today Standard of the Collie *still* keeps the Rough Collie within a Working Dog vision. Question : what a modern long haired collie still has to do with the Standard ? The Standard IS the Standard otherwise I never could understand why our "Old" collie users did it !!! Breeders MUST know the Standard in order to breed the Collie in the right way, judges MUST *perfectly* know the Standard in order to select and to reward the best Collies they have in their rings the day of the show. Refering to the modern long haired collie for the Confirmation of the Roughs from Smooths Collies is a non-sense. By faulty selection and judging, the Rough Collie mutated to the modern long haired collie. Once again, if a Rough from Smooth Collie is, at last, recognised as a Rough and if this Rough Collie fits to the Standard, there is no reason for it not to be confirmed and, on the point of the coat, the Standard exactly precises the "quantity" - as you say - by the expression "Coat fits outline of body" and the "quality" - as you don't speak - by the expression "straight and harsh". Best regards, Françoise
Glenmorangie: Jack Mack wrote: Latest news - our breed club has finally neglected our petition to supply rough collies from smooth parents with proper pedigrees What is (are) the reason(s) ? Best regards, Françoise
Dianne: This is a case for despair - I was really hoping for a more rational reaction from Germany. that means we have no hope in France and probably none in England either. Dianne
Glenmorangie: Dianne wrote: This is a case for despair - I was really hoping for a more rational reaction from Germany. that means we have no hope in France and probably none in England either. Germany is "only" Germany and this case has nothing to do with other countries. You were writing that the matter is to be discussed within the French club committte, what is already a great advance in the willing to deal with the Rough from Smooths Collies. Please, please, don't anticipate the future French reaction on the basis of the German clubs reaction. In addition, nothing is lost for them since they can appeal near the VDH. We can cross our fingers for THEY win but if there is a victory (I hope so) that will be THE German victory. Dianne, this forum is read by many more French collie people than you believe. If they read or report what you just wrote above, the risk is actually big they decide either to stand by the discussion or, worse, still deny the real existance of the Roughs from Smooths as Roughs. I am sorry for having to say that like that to you but you just upset me, what is bad for my health so early in the morning Best regards and have a good day though Françoise
Dianne: So sorry - I read your last but one post as coming from Gudrun - I must have been half asleep still. Can I delete my post somehow? Dianne
Jack Mack: Francoise, the reason is, we have two stud-books since there are two FCI numbers and so two breeds. Our club states that they can not give a stud-book number of the rough stud-book to a rough from smooth parents. Ok, both stud-books are open too and we could have the roughs from smooth parents - you call it confirmed ? - yes but they would loose the pedigree, here I mean they loose their ancesty, the pedigree would be empty. And we think that they should be worth more than a collie without parents or even collie-similar mixes. Oh, I hope I could make myself understood.....
Glenmorangie: Dianne wrote: Can I delete my post somehow? A Forum is supposed to be the written memory of a cybernetic conversation !!! Technically speaking, forums members has no ability to delete their posts once published. Depending on the "trade mark" of a forum, the unique person who can delete is the Moderator. I don't know if our Moderator Natalain is able to do it. And then, even if she can, I am a bit afraid that these posts have already been read...... Most forums are open to everyone's eyes thus don't need to be a member for reading posts within a forum, everyone can read as 'Guest'. And of course, every member can also read as 'Guest'. And.... this is what happens on The International Smooth Collie Forum Jack Mack wrote: the reason is, we have two stud-books since there are two FCI numbers and so two breeds. Our club states that they can not give a stud-book number of the rough stud-book to a rough from smooth parents. If I understood well what you (or someone else) explained me, there are 2 clubs for the Collie in Germany : the German Collie Club and the British Shepherd Dogs Club of Germany. Each club holds its own stud books, I suppose that, in the case of the Collie, each club manage a Rough and a Smooth Collie studbook. Am I right ? Is there a technical reason in the fact that "they can not give a studbook number to a rough from smooths parents" or is it a "simple" decision from their own ? Jack Mack wrote: Ok, both stud-books are open too and we could have the roughs from smooth parents - you call it confirmed ? - yes but they would loose the pedigree, here I mean they loose their ancesty, the pedigree would be empty If your roughs from smooth parents loose their pedigree's ancestry, they "fall down" in what we, in France, call 'unregistered dogs' - Confirmation has nothing to do with this fact. Confirmation is the possibility for the "papered" dogs to get their complete studbook number (they have an uncomplete studbook number when they are puppies) and for unregistered dogs to get their complete studbook number. This complete studbook number gives dogs the ability to reproduce officially. In France there is a studbook for the Rough Collie and a studbook for the Smooth Collie. There is NO TECHNICAL reason for not registering roughs from smooths parents in the Rough Collie studbook. Jack Mack wrote: And we think that they should be worth more than a collie without parents or even collie-similar mixes All right Best regards, Françoise
Jack Mack: You all know that I am fighting since some time for the rough puppies in smooth litters to get a rough collie pedigree in my country, Germany. Now after our breed clubs have denied them a rough collie pedigree I have placed a petition to the VDH. I have been promised that the matter will be discussed among the VDH officials for breeding. One of my arguments is, that it is handled different in some european countries so they should not insist on FCI rules. Now I have been asked to help by finding out how this matter is been handled in as many as possible european countries. So please if all of you can send me the procedure of handling in your coutries. I have heard that in Sweden the two breeds have now been rejoined, is that true? Thank you so much for your help !! Gudrun from Jack Mack's kennel
Dianne: The situation in France is very unsure. My Black recently sired a litter in which there were quite a number of rough puppies. The breeder was allowed to register the puppies as rough. There has been debate as to whether these puppies are "confirmable"
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