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blue-merle x blue-merle
Jack Mack: Which countries kennel clubs allow breeding blue-merle to blue-merle?
Ответов - 25, стр:
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Natalain: Russia There are it is breeder`s responsibility to have deal with white puppies (if breeder stay they alive they will not have documents).
Roberta Semenzato: In italy also it is allowed
OneWay's: In Sweden it's not allowed. It's allowed to mate sable to blue merle, but all the sables will get a breedingban with the registration.
Nina: It's allowed in Croatia.
bells: In USA it is allowed
Fanna: Those who do merle x merle breeding, if you get a double merle puppy, what do you do? I have heard that most of the puppies are put down... I know I would have big problems doing that .
Jack Mack: I had hoped for more answers. I do not believe in puppies born to be killed. I am glad that we have a quite strikt law for animal welfare and am glad that in my country it is not allowed to mate bluemerle x bluemerle because the merle-gen is a defect-gen and if it is doubled puppies can be born without eyes, or blind and deaf. I do hope that in countries where these matings are allowed the white puppies must be culled. Lucky the puppy that is already born dead or lives only a few days. But these poor double-dilute white puppies that survive and find a loving home with a family, they are never really up to life and die young. I wanted to know because I do not want to sell a blue-merle puppy into a country where this is allowed.
Nelson: I our country is free breeding, so depend only at breeder what use for breeding. But this type of mating is not recommended for this possibility of borning double merle puppy. Standard not solve this problem, only one what is not standard colour is sable merle, so it is not allowed in our club to do this combination. All others are possible, but I don't know in our country any mating of two blue merle parents. At the other side....maybe is better breeder will make this combination and will know what does it mean, then breeder who mate close related parents (I mean brother to sister etc.)..and this you will never know, so is maybe little bit non fair not sell blue merle puppy only because coutry allow combination of two blue merle parents. All depend only at breeders and owners....
Alertness: I agree with Gudrun; it is an ethical dilemma involved in mating two blue merles since the risk is great that you will get double dilute, sick puppies that must be put down or else suffer to a varying degree. In Norway the combination is allowed, but the collie club recommend that only experienced breeders do it. I think this advice is very strange as no one, not even experienced breeders can possibly know in advance whether their blue/blue combination will produce white puppies or not . So ethically, it's not to be recommend at all in my opinion. Berit
Alertness: PS: I know that in Finland a combination of two blue merle parents is not allowed. The puppies from such a combination will not be registered at all. Berit
Fanna: I find it a little bit strange to allow blue merle x blue merle breeding but not sable merle. As far as I understand then the reason for sable merle not being allowed is the danger og getting a double merle when breeding sable merle x sable merle.
Alertness: Fanna wrote: "As far as I understand then the reason for sable merle not being allowed is the danger og getting a double merle when breeding sable merle x sable merle. " True. But one other reason that for some may be more important is that sable merles may have blue eyes, and blue eyes on sable is a fault according to the breed standard. So I'm afraid that sometimes when there are rules made for breeding, we are more concerned about the appearance than the health of our lovely collies... Berit
Twinway: In France, it is allowed.
Glenmorangie: Twinway wrote: In France, it is allowed. This is THE reason why Jack Mack's just removed her membership from the Club des Amis du Colley (French Collie Club, for everyone's understanding). This also is the reason why Jack Mack's decided to no longer come into French shows. (That's a good one, there will be less competitors thus bigger chances for us to win. After all, many of her Jack Mack's (the latest in 2008) or her other dogs became French Champions or won the highest awards here. That's enough ) ------ More seriously, I fit to Nelson 's reasoning. Square and realistic. I just would like to say that if the Standard effectively prohibits blue eyes in Sables (but not the colour of the coat), it says nothing against bm x sbl matings. Far away from me to give lesson to your Club, but just if we want to be quite logical I really don't see why these matings could not be done since Sable Merle puppies are recognizable at birth from the "normal" Sables and since, as you say so well, breeders are supposed to know what they do and why they do it Furthermore, blue eyed Sables Merles are quite viable and can be given (or sold) either as pets or as Services Dogs. ------- Alertness Could you precise your thought ? So I'm afraid that sometimes when there are rules made for breeding, we are more concerned about the appearance than the health of our lovely collies... Best wishes, Françoise
Fanna: How many colours where there in the beginning in Collies? I´ve heard about blacks, black and white and ofcourse tricolour, blue merle, sable, sable merle and white (with coloured head). I know that in the USA they are wondering if they should allow sable merle like they do in Canada. I believe the blue eyes (in sable merles) are penalized in the show ring but not always the sable merle colour itself.
Glenmorangie: Originately, the collie was rather black/white, tri, black/tan and BM. There also were whites with coloured spots and many of them have been exported in USA where they were considered as the best of all (the story tells that a white collie bitch was sent to Alaska in order to lead and to guard herds of reindeers, in late XIX, and was very successful in these tasks). In 1868, a Sable dog, resembling a collie, is born in England and was called Old Cockie. We know nothing about this dog because his breeder/owner never wanted to tell the origins of this dog and especially what combinations were used to obtain this colour. It exists a (bad quality) picture of this dog taken at the age of 10 years. Old Cockie was shown and everyone turned crazy about him because of his colour. And quickly breeders wanted to breed this colour and some of the best Champions decending from Cockie were Sables (Ch. Charlemagne, Ch. Metchley Wonder.......). This colour became so much fashionable than other original colours missed to disappear especially the BM. That said, three colours were no longer accepted by the new Standard of this time : black/white, black/tan (which still exist in the Shetland sheepdog + the bm/white) and the whites. With experimentation of all sorts of colour matings, the Sable Merle logically appeared. This is not a bad colour in itself and many of them are of high quality according to the Standard. Except that, one day, experts decided that blue eyed Sables were no longer desirable (a "dark" story of bad expression.....). The chances to get Sable Merles with excellent eyes colour (completely dark) are thin but real. These collies can be shown and can be bred with excellent tricolours. Of course, audacious breeders can try SM x BM, the results can be funny Strange about Americans wonderings..... I very recently saw pictures of wonderful Sable Merle Smooth and Roughs Collies winning in shows. However, it is true it seems that all have completely dark eyes..... Best wishes, Françoise
Natalain: Jack Mack wrote: I do not believe in puppies born to be killed. I think the same. I never will kill puppies who are enough health for to be a normal dogs in future. I think that puppy can has any exterior defect, if it`s not hinder to have normal life - it`s only problem of breeder`s ambition, not a problem for dog. I wanted to know because I do not want to sell a blue-merle puppy into a country where this is allowed. I think that NO ONE Club in any country can control breeders in this case in reality. If breeder want to put down his puppies, he will make it :-(. You can sell tricolour or sable bitch to such breeder and he will put down some of her puppies because it is too large litter, or because he don`t like puppie`s exterior... I think it is individual case of each person.
Jack Mack: I think we have the best law in the world for animal welfare here in Germany and I stand up for it since we fought a long time for animal rights. In breeding we first of all have to follow the law for animal welfare, then the regulations of the FCI, then the ones of the VDH (german kennel club) and last the ones of the breed club. Our law for animal welfare forbids matings that can produce defect offspring. VDH regulations ask for DNA tests before mating if they are available. Our kennel club forbids breeding blue-merle x blue-merle and thus accepts our law for animal welfare. Another thing is, that they also forbid sable x blue-merle matings to avoid mistakingly mating sable-merle x sable-merle or sable-merle x blue-merle (until shortly there was no color mentioned in our pedigrees). In the early 90th there was almost a ban for any blue-merle used in breeding, police hindered blue-merle dogs from beeing exhibited, blue-merles were said to be defect because of the color (I can not find a good word for breeding with defect partners). If I was allowed I would do sable x blue-merle matings, there could be lovely healthy litters with tricolor, blue-merle, sable and sable-merle puppies, the sable-merles beeing great pets. The father of my late Ch. Foxearth Fire Opal, Ch. Foxearth Fire Cracker was a product of a sable x blue-merle mating, he was one of the best dogs I have ever seen. After all I can take the liberty to apply my personal code of ethics and enforce it by contracts to anything that I produce or that has my name on it!
Alertness: Yes Francoise, I'll try to be more precise . What I meant by my comment about the blue-eyed sable merles is this: In some countries like Norway all sable and sable merle puppies from a sable/blue merle combination will be registered with a breeding ban. In other words: Only the blue merle or tricolour puppies from such a combination are allowed to be bred from. So, it is in other words allowed to combine a sable with a blue merle, but their sable and sable merle offspring may not be bred from. And here comes my point: What are the reasons for registering all sable merles with a breeding ban? To me the reason should be that they in turn may produce white defective puppies if mated to another merle dog. But to some others the only reason stated for not allowing these collies to be bred from, is not that puppies may be sick, but that these sable merles may have blue eyes, or may produce sable offspring with blue eyes. This is what I find disconcerting: That collie breeders or breed clubs think it more important to avoid sables with blue eyes which after all is just a matter of looks, than to avoid defect puppies that may suffer and have to be put down. If we put breeding bans on sable merles, it should be for the right reason, that was my point . Sable merles with blue eyes may live long rich lives as family pets; a white defect puppy might not be as lucky. Berit
Fanna: Once I asked the FCI about breeding blm x blm and smooth x rough collies. The answer I got was that they follow the same rule as the breeds country of origin. That would meen that you can not breed blm to blm and not breed smooth to rough. Then I wonder why it is allowed in some FCI kennel clubs to breed blm to blm and rough to smooth? Don´t they have to follow FCI rules of breeding? Fanna
Alertness: Fanna; are you sure it is not allowed to mate blue merle with blue merle in England? I thought it was allowed there... Yes, the general rule is that it is the country of origin that has the responsibility and the right to decide the breeding rules of the breed and what is allowed. But it might be interesting to note that in a period up till 1993-94 it was allowed to mate roughs with smooths. There has actually been several periods during the collie breed's history where this has been allowed in the breed's country of origin. Reason: The smooths needed to broaden its dangerously small gene pool. The reason some countries like Sweden still allows it even after England put a stop to it in 1994, is that certain national kennel clubs listen to different advice than do the British Collie Club or the Kennel Club . They listen to advice from geneticists who warn that the smooth collie breed is constantly in need of "new blood" to keep healthy, and that it would be unwise to shut all doors. Maybe it is a bit daring to propose this, but maybe sometimes the country of origin doesn't always knows what's best for their breed... Berit
Dianne: I am not sure that it is forbidden to mate blue merle to blue merle in Britain. I believe that recently, it was decided that it was not to be recommended. I will try to find the answer to this question . In the meantime, I put it to you that recently, in France, a breeder put down seven healthy male puppies at birth because she couldn't sell males. I know this is true because I was present when she announced it to all present at a show. There was much shock and horror and discussion on the forum (Collie Online), but there doesn't seem to be any rule against this. In England, you are told you may not cull healthy puppies. Once again, I will check on this fact. (I live in France, and this is why I am not too sure about the facts in Britain) Gudrun, you may well sell a puppy to someone who culls perfectly healthy puppies - let alone non-viable double dilute merles. It would be very hard to prevent this - you would not even be told. I agree with you that merles should not be bred together and no puppies should be culled unless they are not viable.
Dianne: Hi Berit - I'm just wondering how many rough collies I know that I would like to mate my smooths to. Not many!!!! In general, roughs would benefit from mating with rough smooths more that smooths would benefit from mating with roughs. Maybe American roughs would be better, but I really don't know enough about them, but the fact that roughs and smooths are frequently mated together there must mean that both varieties benefit from the genes we admire in the smooth. I don't want to come down too hard on modern roughs, but when the smooth was mated with the rough in Britain, the roughs were still of the older type with less of the excessive coat they have now and still had the older longer heads etc - It would be interesting to hear from Tentola about the rough he used in the last rough/ smooth mating in Britain.
Spiritwind: I know in the US and Canada people do breed merle x merle (blue merle or sable merle)... I know of a few breeders who do this or who have double dilutes. I know of a breeder fairly close by who has a double dilute smooth male that is both blind and deaf. He is 3-4 yrs old now, and seems to do ok. He has been bred a couple times and has produced champion offspring. As far as rough x smooth breedings. I am so glad in north america we are allowed to breed rough x smooth. I really prefer smooths, but I do have some roughs and because we are allowed to breed them together, they have stayed one breed, except for coat.. both roughs and smooths are used as preformance and working dogs here as well as show dogs! They really can do it all! I notice very little difference in temperament and behavior between the roughs and smooths. I think every kennel or bloodline will have a slightly different temperament, based on what they breed for, but as far as my dogs go, my roughs are every bit as active, and athletic as my smooths. I'll be doing a rough x smooth breeding soon as my smooth bitch comes in season, which should be any day now!!
Dianne: The American collie seems to differ a lot in temperament from European collies.Is there already a topic on fearfulness in collies on this forum? There has been a ridiculous news storm about it in the UK. I would like to start a discussion and give some links to information about this if there is not a topic already. The magazine, Kurtzhaar Collie has already touched on this subject.
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