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Jack Mack: I do not know if this is the right place for this but it concerns very much breeding of all Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs in my country. VDH in Germany has now banned any breedings that can produce MDR1 affected puppies.
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Spiritwind: Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy to do?? This is going to seriously limit the gene pools of breeds with the MDR1 gene.
Alertness: Thank you Jack Mack; very interesting news! Just to make sure I understand the consequences of this new rule: In reality this would mean that it is only possible to use a carrier or an affected dog (MDR1+/- and MDR1-/-) if you mate him/her to a genetically free collie (MDR1+/+)? These are the only combinations apart from mating two genetically free dogs that would prevent any of the offspring to be affected. I don't know if this is true, but I've read somewhere that it is estimated that as much as 75% of all collies may be either carriers or affected. This leaves only about 25% of the collie population left. This must create quite a pressure on these 25% collies to be used for breeding because without them none of the rest of the 75% may ever be used for breeding. In addition one has to expect that not all of these 25% are suitable as breeding material as there are other factors to consider too; hips/elbows, general health, temperament, degree of inbreeding, looks and so on. So how many of these MDR1+/+ will be available for breeding at the end of the day? Will it be sufficient to keep the breed going and staying healthy without the gene pool shrinking? Berit
Lea: I'm shocked
Cinnaberry: I hope this won't spread to other countries or the breed will be in serious trouble. There's no way the breed with such a narrow gene pool (as smooths) would cope with this without severe new problems. Anne
Jack Mack: German breeders have to thank their club-officials for that ! VDH has since a long time (years) asked the clubs that are resposible for collies if they have any statistics or if they were willing to encourage their breeders to test their breeding stock. They did nothing, even ignored official mail from VDH (and worse things I do not want to mention here), now this is the answer. If they had reacted and offered plans for programs to only reduce the defect in the breed in reasonable time we could have had years and years to think about how to cope with MDR1, now we will have to live with it (many many rough collie breeders will not be able to.........) The smooth collies here are not as much affected as the roughs. We will surely have more CEA if we have to select for MDR1 first, we never had problems with HD. And - we will have to hope that breeders in foreign countries are willing to test their dogs if asked for it !!!
Spiritwind: The Collie gene pool is not real big anyway.. not matter where you live. Something like this is just not a good idea. Alertness wrote: I don't know if this is true, but I've read somewhere that it is estimated that as much as 75% of all collies may be either carriers or affected. This leaves only about 25% of the collie population left. Berit, I have heard basically the same thing for the percentage of Collies that are believed to be either mutant/mutant (+/+), or mutant/normal (+/-). Even the +/- dogs can experience toxicity after normal doses of certain drugs. That doesn't leave much to work with!
Lisa: I am as well shocked and hope very much that it won't spread over to austria. I think it is absolutely stupid to select in that way and ignore things like CEA, that can really harm the dog. In my opinion, no dog dies from MDR1, they die from wrong medications, so it's not our job to reduce MDR1 at first but to think of using the right medications for our dogs. You must never forget that MDR1 does not only occur in Collies an Shelties, it's in a lot of other breeds as German Shepherds, American White Shepherds, Silken Windhouns etc etc. Why is MDR1 banned in the Collie breed, but obviously not a serious topic for all the other dogs? If the VDH bans MDR1 affected puppies, they have to ask ALL breeders of ALL breeds to do so, not only two breeds! And they have to give you more time to build up a healthy breed stock and get used to the changes. For example, at least I think, that carrier x carrier breedings should be allowed because they produce onlx few affected dogs but give you at least a little bit more variety in choosing a breed partner for your dog. I'm very afraid that there will be only 3 or 4 Smooth males be used during the next years and that this will result in huge inbreeding problems, a lot of CEA and probably new deseases (heart problems, epilepsie, ...) that haven't been a problem so far... not to mention a change (an d loss of variety) in the breeds outside shape if a lot of american dogs are used as it has been the case in the last two years.
catrin: I´m shocked too. I will never understand the point of such restrictions. I will test my puppies if it is asked to do but never ever will breed just for MDR1.
Natalain: Lisa wrote: I think it is absolutely stupid to select in that way and ignore things like CEA, that can really harm the dog. In my opinion, no dog dies from MDR1, they die from wrong medications, so it's not our job to reduce MDR1 at first but to think of using the right medications for our dogs. I can only join to this words...
Nelson: Gudrun, do you think that is possible to change this ban? It is really stupid to breed only about MDR1, because there is so less MDR1 Normal dogs....and I am really affraid about smoothies in Germany. If you take whole Europe, you can count MDR1 normal dogs on your hands. Because in countries like Finland, Sweden, UK - they not test it, because they don't believe to the results. And I am not sure if someone will be willing to test his male for his own money when he can't be sure, that you will use his dog....we have big problem I think. Is nice, that some breeders imported dogs MDR1 normal from USA, but for me this is not the way, which I want to use in my breeding. I can only hope, that our chief organisation will ask before they make something like this....because this can cause only one thing - loosing nice and healthy breed only because of one interested thing.....horrible idea. Maybe clubs from other countries can help to German clubs - I don't know....if you have some idea, let us know how we can help you.
Uptown Girl: That's stupid...
Dianne: I have been amongst the breeders who wanted to eliminate the MDR/1 defect. but have written again and again that this cannot be done suddenly - it must be done over many generations and many years. Now, I don't know what to say or do. As other people have said here, this directive made by the VDH will lead to the same few dogs being used repeatedly. I have already agonised because I could not find a partner which really grabbed my eye for my girl, Miss,among the few tested dogs. It's not that there are not some nice dogs out there, but none that would complement my girl's conformation and have an easy going character etc. My third litter was a mating between my girl. Sadie (MDR -/-), with Whashishi's Gideon (MDR +/+). There was therefore no puppy affected, but all are carriers. I hoped to do the same with Miss - now I am hesitating. some breeders are already breeding only with MDR/ 1 +/+ dogs and CEA non-carriers. The gene pool is therefore even more reduced. where are we going? Dianne
Jack Mack: .........do you think that is possible to change this ban? Nelson - We will try but do you really think that the VDH takes his decision back? I do not think so........ - they not test it, because they don't believe to the results. They do test in UK - and the labs that had the wrong results were taken from the list in Germany, it is only Laboklin and Pharmtox GieЯen that tested with the original method! And I am not sure if someone will be willing to test his male for his own money when he can't be sure, that you will use his dog....we have big problem I think. I have payed for all tests on puppies, males or females if I was interested to find out about their MDR1 status. The gene pool is always reduced by using the same males over and over, by linebreeding etc. There are plenty of good males that could be used at stud but nobody cares because they are no champions or no big sportsmen. Or they are half-americans Nobody asks you to follow our rules, you can go on breeding whatever you want...........
Nelson: Thank you for answer, Gudrun. I thought that you didn't agree with this decision of VDH. Now I have feeling that it is no problem for you, so I am sorry that I've tried to find some way how to help you. About testing in UK, Finland and Sweden - I were in contact with some breeders about tests of their dogs and only one was able to test his dog for MDR1. All my puppies are too tested for this, but when I want to find nice male with good health result, who is for example 7 years old, in that time, when this male was puppy, wasn't not so much able to test it. So then I have to ask owner of this dog to make this test for me. Is true that someone can tell, that I can pay it myself, but when I do it at 5 males, it will be very expensive for me to find male with good result. It is not about that you ask as to follow your rules.....we can be only affraid that other chief organisation will follow VDH....I think that for us it could be problem......but if you think that it is ok, why you put it here as a problem?
Jack Mack: Pavla - You understand not right, I think it is foolish but I have to follow the rules if VDH insists, I have no possibility to breed under FCI if I do not. As I said before, we might depend on the help of foreign breeders and that means, the only way they can help us is to test their dogs if asked for it. How would you be able to help in any other way? My last sentence was: Nobody asks you to follow our rules, you can go on breeding whatever you want It is us who will have to live with these restrictions. And we will have to depend on the only help you foreign breeders can give us, new bloodlines with dogs that are free from the MDR1 defect........ I do not believe any of your kennel clubs would follow the VDH rules. Gudrun
Nelson: Ok, it was misunderstanding. I thought about help like that we (our clubs) ask our chief organisation (here it is CMKU) to send some type of appeal to VDH about this problematic with ask to think about it once again, because it can be to much suddenly to do it this way...so for example to make some plan like to breed like now but put to breeding only +/- or +/+ dogs and after some time, when will be enough dogs wihtou this defect, so then put in practice this ban. And if this can make more countries, maybe VDH will think about it again. Maybe not...I don't know, it was only idea. Of course that is too help, if other breeders will test for MDR1 and publish their results, so you will have more possibilities to find dogs, who will be free of this defect, but I think that most breeders who visit this forum do it and problem is to persuade others. So we can only hope that future will bring more tested dogs. Do you think that if I will want to mate in Germany my female, and this combination could produce puppy with MDR1 defect, that owner of male will mate with him my female or this will be taken as a breaking of this ban too? Because if the ban is - "has now banned any breedings that can produce MDR1 affected puppies", it means mating with abroad females too?
Jack Mack: No, VDH can not place his ban on breedings in foreign countries. It is up to the breeder if he accepts a female from abroad, maybe you will be asked about the status of your bitch maybe not. I do not know how VDH would react if another organisation would tell them they think this is no good :-( they are very angry because our collie clubs did not react to their earlier suggestions about how to handle the MDR1 defect in breeding.
Nelson: Ok, so you think that if owner of male for example +/- will decide to mate my female +/-, VDH or Clubs won't penalize him for breaking ban to produce MDR1 defekt puppies. It sounds plus minus ok. And about VDH - so it will be maybe better not to irritate VDH with some appeal from abroad. We have to wait and see what will be. I can only promise to you, that all my puppies will be tested for MDR1 and results will be at my website. I cross my fingers to all breeders in Germany!
Mabinogion: we think this is madnes! i aggree with the others that our genepool is to small to do things like that ,you will get many awfull things in the breed who really harm the dogs! we think to that the dog with the MDR 1 effect is a healthy dog ,only some medicin make them sick. here in Nederland the collieclub say that we dont test the dogs on the MDR 1 gene. we totally agree! we can feel mad about these kind of decisions ! but this is MY opinium and MY feelings about this!
Avery: I am not a breeder but eventually I'll start (in some 20 years time ) to look for the breeder of my future dog. Then I'll hope to find a breeder who makes his decisions based on the full picture - and this full includes MDR1 as well as many other factors. If a breeder decides for a combination that will produce affected puppies for a good reason I have no problems to accept that. I don't think that VDH's decision is a very wise one but neither do I think that not testing for MDR1 helps the breed. ...just my 2 cents
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