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MDR1

Jack Mack: I do not know if this is the right place for this but it concerns very much breeding of all Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs in my country. VDH in Germany has now banned any breedings that can produce MDR1 affected puppies.

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Spiritwind: Am I the only one that thinks this is crazy to do?? This is going to seriously limit the gene pools of breeds with the MDR1 gene.

Alertness: Thank you Jack Mack; very interesting news! Just to make sure I understand the consequences of this new rule: In reality this would mean that it is only possible to use a carrier or an affected dog (MDR1+/- and MDR1-/-) if you mate him/her to a genetically free collie (MDR1+/+)? These are the only combinations apart from mating two genetically free dogs that would prevent any of the offspring to be affected. I don't know if this is true, but I've read somewhere that it is estimated that as much as 75% of all collies may be either carriers or affected. This leaves only about 25% of the collie population left. This must create quite a pressure on these 25% collies to be used for breeding because without them none of the rest of the 75% may ever be used for breeding. In addition one has to expect that not all of these 25% are suitable as breeding material as there are other factors to consider too; hips/elbows, general health, temperament, degree of inbreeding, looks and so on. So how many of these MDR1+/+ will be available for breeding at the end of the day? Will it be sufficient to keep the breed going and staying healthy without the gene pool shrinking? Berit

Lea: I'm shocked

Cinnaberry: I hope this won't spread to other countries or the breed will be in serious trouble. There's no way the breed with such a narrow gene pool (as smooths) would cope with this without severe new problems. Anne

Jack Mack: German breeders have to thank their club-officials for that ! VDH has since a long time (years) asked the clubs that are resposible for collies if they have any statistics or if they were willing to encourage their breeders to test their breeding stock. They did nothing, even ignored official mail from VDH (and worse things I do not want to mention here), now this is the answer. If they had reacted and offered plans for programs to only reduce the defect in the breed in reasonable time we could have had years and years to think about how to cope with MDR1, now we will have to live with it (many many rough collie breeders will not be able to.........) The smooth collies here are not as much affected as the roughs. We will surely have more CEA if we have to select for MDR1 first, we never had problems with HD. And - we will have to hope that breeders in foreign countries are willing to test their dogs if asked for it !!!

Spiritwind: The Collie gene pool is not real big anyway.. not matter where you live. Something like this is just not a good idea. Alertness wrote: I don't know if this is true, but I've read somewhere that it is estimated that as much as 75% of all collies may be either carriers or affected. This leaves only about 25% of the collie population left. Berit, I have heard basically the same thing for the percentage of Collies that are believed to be either mutant/mutant (+/+), or mutant/normal (+/-). Even the +/- dogs can experience toxicity after normal doses of certain drugs. That doesn't leave much to work with!

Lisa: I am as well shocked and hope very much that it won't spread over to austria. I think it is absolutely stupid to select in that way and ignore things like CEA, that can really harm the dog. In my opinion, no dog dies from MDR1, they die from wrong medications, so it's not our job to reduce MDR1 at first but to think of using the right medications for our dogs. You must never forget that MDR1 does not only occur in Collies an Shelties, it's in a lot of other breeds as German Shepherds, American White Shepherds, Silken Windhouns etc etc. Why is MDR1 banned in the Collie breed, but obviously not a serious topic for all the other dogs? If the VDH bans MDR1 affected puppies, they have to ask ALL breeders of ALL breeds to do so, not only two breeds! And they have to give you more time to build up a healthy breed stock and get used to the changes. For example, at least I think, that carrier x carrier breedings should be allowed because they produce onlx few affected dogs but give you at least a little bit more variety in choosing a breed partner for your dog. I'm very afraid that there will be only 3 or 4 Smooth males be used during the next years and that this will result in huge inbreeding problems, a lot of CEA and probably new deseases (heart problems, epilepsie, ...) that haven't been a problem so far... not to mention a change (an d loss of variety) in the breeds outside shape if a lot of american dogs are used as it has been the case in the last two years.

catrin: I´m shocked too. I will never understand the point of such restrictions. I will test my puppies if it is asked to do but never ever will breed just for MDR1.

Natalain: Lisa wrote: I think it is absolutely stupid to select in that way and ignore things like CEA, that can really harm the dog. In my opinion, no dog dies from MDR1, they die from wrong medications, so it's not our job to reduce MDR1 at first but to think of using the right medications for our dogs. I can only join to this words...

Nelson: Gudrun, do you think that is possible to change this ban? It is really stupid to breed only about MDR1, because there is so less MDR1 Normal dogs....and I am really affraid about smoothies in Germany. If you take whole Europe, you can count MDR1 normal dogs on your hands. Because in countries like Finland, Sweden, UK - they not test it, because they don't believe to the results. And I am not sure if someone will be willing to test his male for his own money when he can't be sure, that you will use his dog....we have big problem I think. Is nice, that some breeders imported dogs MDR1 normal from USA, but for me this is not the way, which I want to use in my breeding. I can only hope, that our chief organisation will ask before they make something like this....because this can cause only one thing - loosing nice and healthy breed only because of one interested thing.....horrible idea. Maybe clubs from other countries can help to German clubs - I don't know....if you have some idea, let us know how we can help you.

Uptown Girl: That's stupid...

Dianne: I have been amongst the breeders who wanted to eliminate the MDR/1 defect. but have written again and again that this cannot be done suddenly - it must be done over many generations and many years. Now, I don't know what to say or do. As other people have said here, this directive made by the VDH will lead to the same few dogs being used repeatedly. I have already agonised because I could not find a partner which really grabbed my eye for my girl, Miss,among the few tested dogs. It's not that there are not some nice dogs out there, but none that would complement my girl's conformation and have an easy going character etc. My third litter was a mating between my girl. Sadie (MDR -/-), with Whashishi's Gideon (MDR +/+). There was therefore no puppy affected, but all are carriers. I hoped to do the same with Miss - now I am hesitating. some breeders are already breeding only with MDR/ 1 +/+ dogs and CEA non-carriers. The gene pool is therefore even more reduced. where are we going? Dianne

Jack Mack: .........do you think that is possible to change this ban? Nelson - We will try but do you really think that the VDH takes his decision back? I do not think so........ - they not test it, because they don't believe to the results. They do test in UK - and the labs that had the wrong results were taken from the list in Germany, it is only Laboklin and Pharmtox GieЯen that tested with the original method! And I am not sure if someone will be willing to test his male for his own money when he can't be sure, that you will use his dog....we have big problem I think. I have payed for all tests on puppies, males or females if I was interested to find out about their MDR1 status. The gene pool is always reduced by using the same males over and over, by linebreeding etc. There are plenty of good males that could be used at stud but nobody cares because they are no champions or no big sportsmen. Or they are half-americans Nobody asks you to follow our rules, you can go on breeding whatever you want...........

Nelson: Thank you for answer, Gudrun. I thought that you didn't agree with this decision of VDH. Now I have feeling that it is no problem for you, so I am sorry that I've tried to find some way how to help you. About testing in UK, Finland and Sweden - I were in contact with some breeders about tests of their dogs and only one was able to test his dog for MDR1. All my puppies are too tested for this, but when I want to find nice male with good health result, who is for example 7 years old, in that time, when this male was puppy, wasn't not so much able to test it. So then I have to ask owner of this dog to make this test for me. Is true that someone can tell, that I can pay it myself, but when I do it at 5 males, it will be very expensive for me to find male with good result. It is not about that you ask as to follow your rules.....we can be only affraid that other chief organisation will follow VDH....I think that for us it could be problem......but if you think that it is ok, why you put it here as a problem?

Jack Mack: Pavla - You understand not right, I think it is foolish but I have to follow the rules if VDH insists, I have no possibility to breed under FCI if I do not. As I said before, we might depend on the help of foreign breeders and that means, the only way they can help us is to test their dogs if asked for it. How would you be able to help in any other way? My last sentence was: Nobody asks you to follow our rules, you can go on breeding whatever you want It is us who will have to live with these restrictions. And we will have to depend on the only help you foreign breeders can give us, new bloodlines with dogs that are free from the MDR1 defect........ I do not believe any of your kennel clubs would follow the VDH rules. Gudrun

Nelson: Ok, it was misunderstanding. I thought about help like that we (our clubs) ask our chief organisation (here it is CMKU) to send some type of appeal to VDH about this problematic with ask to think about it once again, because it can be to much suddenly to do it this way...so for example to make some plan like to breed like now but put to breeding only +/- or +/+ dogs and after some time, when will be enough dogs wihtou this defect, so then put in practice this ban. And if this can make more countries, maybe VDH will think about it again. Maybe not...I don't know, it was only idea. Of course that is too help, if other breeders will test for MDR1 and publish their results, so you will have more possibilities to find dogs, who will be free of this defect, but I think that most breeders who visit this forum do it and problem is to persuade others. So we can only hope that future will bring more tested dogs. Do you think that if I will want to mate in Germany my female, and this combination could produce puppy with MDR1 defect, that owner of male will mate with him my female or this will be taken as a breaking of this ban too? Because if the ban is - "has now banned any breedings that can produce MDR1 affected puppies", it means mating with abroad females too?

Jack Mack: No, VDH can not place his ban on breedings in foreign countries. It is up to the breeder if he accepts a female from abroad, maybe you will be asked about the status of your bitch maybe not. I do not know how VDH would react if another organisation would tell them they think this is no good :-( they are very angry because our collie clubs did not react to their earlier suggestions about how to handle the MDR1 defect in breeding.

Nelson: Ok, so you think that if owner of male for example +/- will decide to mate my female +/-, VDH or Clubs won't penalize him for breaking ban to produce MDR1 defekt puppies. It sounds plus minus ok. And about VDH - so it will be maybe better not to irritate VDH with some appeal from abroad. We have to wait and see what will be. I can only promise to you, that all my puppies will be tested for MDR1 and results will be at my website. I cross my fingers to all breeders in Germany!

Mabinogion: we think this is madnes! i aggree with the others that our genepool is to small to do things like that ,you will get many awfull things in the breed who really harm the dogs! we think to that the dog with the MDR 1 effect is a healthy dog ,only some medicin make them sick. here in Nederland the collieclub say that we dont test the dogs on the MDR 1 gene. we totally agree! we can feel mad about these kind of decisions ! but this is MY opinium and MY feelings about this!

Avery: I am not a breeder but eventually I'll start (in some 20 years time ) to look for the breeder of my future dog. Then I'll hope to find a breeder who makes his decisions based on the full picture - and this full includes MDR1 as well as many other factors. If a breeder decides for a combination that will produce affected puppies for a good reason I have no problems to accept that. I don't think that VDH's decision is a very wise one but neither do I think that not testing for MDR1 helps the breed. ...just my 2 cents

myrnash: I was sho0cked to hear of this decision. MDR1 is not a disease, it is only important for us to know the status of the dog so that we can be careful about using certain drugs with sensitive dogs. I do test all my dogs (not easy, we don't have a lab here, I have to send the tests to Australia), because I want to know what the status of my dogs is. We do have a parasite common in some parts of the country here which is treated with ivermectin based products, so I want to know when I sell a puppy to be able to inform the new owner if they need to be careful anjd not to use these proiducts. The statistics seem right, this is also what I have been getting more or less in my breeding - about one quarter are +/+. But I certainly will not eliminate an otherwise excellent dog from breeding because he is -/-, I will just consider this when making breeding decisions. It is a big mistake to limit the gene pool so much for something that is a controllable problem. Whatever is the VDH thinking!

Jack Mack: @Myrna What is the VDH thinking? Important breeds for the VDH are German Shepherds, Teckels, Doberman, Rottweiler and so on - they would never dare to put any bans on breeders of those breeds But VDH is also very aware of a loss of integrity if they do not follow public demands. And the biggest problem with MDR1 in Germany was, that all the collie foren were full with it, warning puppy buyers not to buy MDR1 affected puppies.

cris: myrnash wrote: We do have a parasite common in some parts of the country here which is treated with ivermectin based products, so I want to know when I sell a puppy to be able to inform the new owner if they need to be careful anjd not to use these proiducts. Do you mean Filaria worm? We also have this problem!

myrnash: Yes, it is a big problem here, fortunately not in my part of the country. But the vets here routinely give the dogs a monthly treatment with an ivermectin based product as a preventative, which is of course very dangerous to dogs that are MDR1-/-.

cris: It's the same, here! I give monthly "Interceptor" to my dogs in summer season against heartworms: it's not ivermectin, but "milbemicin", they say it's safe for MDR1-/- dogs. I hope so!

Nelson: Hi, about Filaria worms - here we use against it Advocate or Stronghold. Both have inside Moxidectin or Selamectin, what is too on list of dangerous drugs, but producer told me, that this type of treatment (put on skin spot on for a right weight of dog) should not caused any problems.

Jack Mack: Well said Avery - and welcome to the forum !

Alertness: An interesting, professional viewpoint in the MDR1 discussion: http://www.sharonvanderlip.com/pdfs/Response_mdr1Article.pdf Berit

Spiritwind: Thanks for the link. I read the article. Does anyone have a link to view the original Round Up article?? I'm be interested in reading that, if anyone knows where I could find it.

Glenmorangie: Thank you very much, Alertness I remember Sharon Vanderlip writing an article in an old International Collie Handbook (1984, I think) about Collies encounting problems with certain drugs, ivermectin in particular. At this time, nobody knows exactly what disease was in cause but she suspected a weakness in the blood brain barrier. She also reported a correspondence with Maria-Teresa Garabelli (di Cambiano Rough Collies, Italy) who had severe problems with some of her dogs. Years later (1989) a small English kennel (Coppi Rough Collies) reported in the ICH she had severe problems with ivermectin, two of her bitches died between 7 and 14 days of sufferings. A third was a bit affected but survive after an appropriate treatment without apparent consequences and the fourth was quite resistant. The year after, the same breeder reported that the third collie who survived apparently normal gave birth to a litter with eyes problems then this bitch never produced any affected puppy before. Twenty years passed away between the first commerce of ivermectin and the discorery of the genetic origin of this disease. Because the genetic researches were at an "embryo" state, researches and discovery took lot of time. But once the mutant gene was discovered, "only" two years were needed to make and to perfect a DNA test and to establish a list of dangerous medications. Thus, this test exist only since 2003. And only six years after, an administration decides to ban any mating producing MDR1 affected puppies. That's quite madness in such a short interval of time. The results on the concerned breeds will quickly be catastrophic. What about the FCI Standard ? What about the other health issues ? What about the genetic diversity ? Who will be able to stand for years such a costly breeding program ? Who will be able to pay a fortune for a Collie or Sheltie puppy in the next future ? Other questions welcome.... That said, as far as I know it seems to me that the German breeders themselves have generated this accelerated decision by anticipation for four years at least in litterally kidnapping the very few MDR1 +/+ Collies puppies or adults from few countries (from France in example where the Smooth pool is justly really quite microscopic ) In addition, these imports are from the same families most of the time (obviously, I don't speak about US imports !!) thus the gene pool is still more reduced. In the Collie breed, this problem is considerably increased by the prohibition of crossing roughs x smooths. If these crossings were allowed, if the roughs from smooths where really recognised as roughs, if a real testing program was established, it is obvious that the MDR1 issue (as well as CEA) would be classified in a reasonable future of fifteen-twenty years, without loss of any bit of gene pool, on the contrary. But if....... "IF Cleopatra had had a longer nose, this would have changed the face of the world" (French proverb). Best regards, Françoise

Jack Mack: Berit, thank you for the article! Everybody seems to think that we (breeders that take the MDR1 defect seriously into consideration in their breeding program) do not take all other health issues and genetic diversity as serious as the MDR1 defect....... As for me I am about to be at the end of the "flag pole", I have spent too much time and money (first of all to import new material to enlarge our gene pool, only secondary to look for non-carriers for the MDR1 gene) to go an like that. Francoise, you are right, there have been too many imports from the same families into Germany and I have to keep away from them although they would be the only MDR1 non-carriers not related to mine...... You all can believe me, it is very hard to produce good dogs that are non-carriers both for the MDR1 and CEA genes and keep all other health issues in mind. I am since long waiting for a tricolor female puppy that fulfills all my wishes. Both litters I have now only the males are non-carriers for the MDR1 gene, all girls are carriers I am lucky to find show and breeding homes to take the males in but for me there is no forthcoming........ I have a very nice blue-merle bitch puppy (MDR1 +/-, CEA non-carrier) here and I know, I have to fly to America again......time enough to save money and hopefully the male will still be available then A sometimes quite desperate Gudrun

Glenmorangie: Hello Spiritwind Good question !!! That is exactly this one I wondered when I was reading Sharon's article this night. Perhaps contacting Sharon Vanderlip herself would help to get this Round Up (Monsanto ???? ) article ? I tried searching this article on the Internet but the term of "Round up" is so many times used for any things I did not find the interesting one Best regards, Françosie

Tentola: The "Round up" used to be produced by The West of England Collie Society. Nick

Glenmorangie: This is why I did not find it. Thank you very much, Nick Best wishes, Françoise

Jack Mack: Maybe this is of interest: http://www.collienet.com/breed%20club%20pageheadings/EACA/health%20coordination.htm and this is the e-mail of the West of England Collie Society: joanita@vonarcle.fsnet.co.uk

Jack Mack: Yesterday VDH retreated from the ban of producing MDR1 -/- puppies in the breeds of rough and smooth collies and shetland sheepdogs. There will have to be a program to reduce the defect in apropriate time. Will be back with more news Gudrun

Alertness: Thanks for bringing the news Gudrun! Berit

Nelson: Jack Mack Great new! Thank you for it!

Jack Mack: Genomia lab in CZ offers now a combined test for CEA and MDR1 to an attractive price! Go to www.genomia.cz One blood sample or one swab sample is enough for both tests. Both results are usually in one week. CEA + MDR1 test 112,5 Euro !!!

MARGARET: http://www.collienet.com/health%20topics/MDR1%20Gene%20defect.htm On this page you will see Sharon Vanderlip's response to th article you were discussing on MDR1

MARGARET: This is the article which was in the Round-Up http://www.scottishcollieclub.co.uk/MDR1%20The%20Silent%20Killer.htm

MARGARET: I understand we can all do the health checks as we want healthy collies, but I am with Sharon on this..MDR1 does not kill if we avoid drugs, what our dogs are tested on is fine for our information as to matings etc but there are other health issues more serious and give far more stress to the dog, like bad hips..

Lisa: What an interesting article, there are definitely thing sto consider. For me as well information and general testing (and publication of the results) is the most important thing to do at the moment. All these health issues take time to be erased from the breed, and if one tries to do it rash there might be other, more serious problems, coming up in the process...

termite: i can't understand the text, because of my english-skills, but i understand the title, and i laugh...MDR1 is not a killer, my god. i don't like people who broadcast panic, and this title seems so...with MDR -/- the dog can live very well, but not with bad hips, bad ellbows or diseased eyes.

Lisa: I only found the answer by Sharon Vanderlip later and it is good to know that most of the suggestions from the round-up article seem to be wrong. It might be interesting to translate both articls, because they sum up quite well what misunderstanding there are currently in Germany and other european countries... so maybe if I have some free time, I will try to translate the articles...

termite: it would be great and very nice, lisa

Lisa: I will try to find the time this week - or the weekend at least... I'll let you know ;-)

termite: ja, mach dir bitte keinen stress! es eilt ja nicht, das thema wird noch sehr lange aktuell sein...

Jack Mack: Many many years ago there was a great uproar, at least in Europe, when breeders were asked to test their dogs for CEA and now it is next to hip scoring one of the most important things to do! No dog ever died from CEA and hip displacia is very very seldom in collies. If we do not start to care now that we know how to handle MDR1 how will our predecessors think about us? And don't assert that we do not care about any other problems too, may it be health or standard, don't call us thoughtless breeders. /Gudrun

margaret: I would disagree that HD is VERY VERY seldom in Collies

Dianne: I read the figure of 5% quoted for the number of collies affected by HD. That sounds not bad at all, but if you reduce it to one dog in twenty, then it sounds quite a high number after all. But who makes the statistics - how do they obtain them? We need to know how accurate such statistics are. I recently had a lady call me in great distress as her very young collie had been diagnosed by her vet as having severe HD needing immediate operation at great cost. I advised her to see another vet before going in for an operation. I believe she is reporting to the technical advisor of our French collie club, and have had no further news so far. I hate to say it, and do believe that most vets are honest, but I have also read about vets who create work for themselves.

Jack Mack: Dianne, maybe this 5% means all collies? From what I was able to research in statistics of different kennel clubs that provide this possibility and if you count our HD B(1) quoted as "free" in some other countries it should be less than 1% in smooths. Our kennel clubs in Germany were even offered by VDH to think about ceasing the obligatory hipscreening of collies for registration for breeding. Also all our american imports were free from hip displacia, had even excellent hips, although opponents were afraid there would be bad results because in America they do not test frequently. /Gudrun

Funny: After 5 years MDR1 terror one can say this don't have to themselves everything confirm. The -/- collies are still healthy as a +/+ And the VDH's decision has lifted, you forget to say here! So dangerously as you have thought, is MDR1 not and you have told it free of charge all world. It looks in such a way, as if you had expected a sales advantage. Don't worry, because there are still normal breeders in Germany who see this senseless subject realistic. I'm breeder since 7 years ago and never died a collie out of my breeding with MDR1-gene, also not in the last 5 years where one has invented MDR1. Today vets are cleared up very much and not silly. They know that one must give collie's other Meds! Also cats, rabbits ... But this: Our old dog Flash, born in 1999 is MDR1 -/- and was poisons at the age of 9 month - with a silly deworming for horses, also with ivermectins. And he still lives! He was treated medically and now he is 11 years and still healthy, always running and playing! I ask still myself: what the hell is going on with you over since 5 years to spread this spiritual waste ? Sorry all, I had to let it out!

Lisa: Maybe I may say that it is not the best place to let those feeling loose in a public Forum. Of course one may not forget to think about the other important health issues in Collies, but I do not have the feeling that Gudrun is focused only on this one topic, as she also uses +/- dogs in her breeding programme, and if I am informed correctly also -/- from time to time. As long as there are no severe problems introduced or pushed forward, it is her business how she handles the health testings of her dogs. And as all her dogs are tested for Hips and Eyes as well, there are only very few breeders who do that much testing (in public). For me personally, the eyes wuld be more important, but this is a priority every breeder has to set for him- or herself. I do not want to interfere in the highly complicated structures of your german breed clubs and politics ( I am glad that in Austria there is a good relationship to the club and members in general), but accusations of other breeders will not be of any help. I am sure of that.

Lisa: PS.: I have translated the Round-Up article to German now (with permission of Angela Harvey) and will soon try to translate the vanderlip-reaction as well (it is a bit longer ) so just in case one of the Germans is interested in the translatetd versions... in german: Ich habe den Artikel aus dem Round-Up Magazin zum Thema MDR1 übersetzt und kann ihn gerne weiterleiten, wenn ihn jemand auf deutsch lesen möchte. Auch die Reaktion von Dr. Vanderlip möchte ich demnächst übersetzen, das wird aber wegen der Länge und bedeutend fachlicheren Sprache etwas mehr Zeit in Anspruch nehmen. Wenn jemand Interesse hat an den deutschen Versionen, sagt mir einfach Bescheid

Funny: Hi Lisa, yes my thread is afflicted with emotions and this have a reason: In Germany and now in Europe the theme MDR1 is trading to much and it is too high played. In German breeding (and maybe not only in Germany) begins bad series with very bad and sad mistakes in our breed. Nobody talk about that - the result of breeding with only one aim: MDR1 - leads from a formerly healthy breed to an ill one. I hope that my thread is a provocation for other breeder and it begins a discussion with the subject. Now we have 5 years experience with MDR1-breeding here and by now we should see results: illness like epilepsy, heart mistakes, Kryptorchismus, ... What have we won? We must begin at the beginning constantly again. We exclude good dogs from the breeding and now (German) breeder use just a few males. Can this be good? I put these question to people with more than 10 years experience in breeding. By the way: google translate the article in your home language here: http://translate.google.de/# Above I forgot it: thank you for your attention and regards!

Mabinogion: Funny hai Funny that is were we are affraid to ,that will happend ,when you use so may times the same males ! you get many other ilness ,what really is worse! luckely here in nederland we dont have that rule and the collieclub things olso that is it not wise to do what they doing germany right now! other things are more important !

Dianne: Hi Gudrun and everyone - we are discussing very knotty problems here and we have people commenting from diametrically opposed points of view. If we start from the premise that everyone is free to do what their conscience dictates and that it doesn't concern other breeders - that is as long as no official body starts making tests obligatory, or decreeing that no MDR1 -/- dogs may be produced. So should tests be obligatory or not? Personally, I have mixed reactions. In the case of CEA, the French collie club no longer demands tests. I shall be interested to see the state of eyes in ten years time. In the case of hips - there has been a hint that pulling a young dogs legs into full and unnatural extension can do harm. Plus the danger to MDR affected and even +/- dogs of the anaesthetic used. For MDR testing - the test does no harm and at least future owners know where they stand. Funny says vets in Germany know about MDR sensitivity and take care - I wish French vets were as well informed. So - to test or not to test - I am not the expert - I have just asked the question. One last thing - the Smooth Collie Club of Great Britain has now begun to encourage breeders to test for MDR. Click on health and well-being then on MDR. http://www.smoothcollieclub.com Dianne PS the dog mentioned in my previous post was a rough - sorry -

Dianne: Here is a very rational response to the article in Roundup http://www.sharonvanderlip.com/pdfs/Response_mdr1Article.pdf Good reading Dianne

Dianne: Sorry Alertness - alert as usual - I see you have already posted the response to the Roundup article - well a repeat won't do any harm.

OneWay's: I got my first collie 1981 my first litter was born 1984 and many dogs has been born here, and no one of my dogs has been killed by medication like ivermectin. Here the vets know that collies can be sensitive, so I don't understand the BIG problem??? Many dogs from my breeding had really high age 14-15 years without any sick days. So when you Gudrun told me that my MultiCh OneWay's Errol Flynn was affected or what ever, do you think I care?? a dog that was healthy in 13 years? even if you had said that he was +/+ I shouldn't NEVER had given him ivermectin, because I don't have to, and I don't trust these tests. You can give collies Interceptor if you need. We have horses we devormed them with Ivermectin, but the dogs are not allowed to eat their shit and I'm always carefull to put the leftovers in the trash, so no problem. A much bigger problem in the breed is all these dogs with ep and immunproblems, dogs that dies in cancer, these thing ARE thing to care for, If I look in some dogs pedigrees it's like a nightmare, same dogs up to 10 times, in some generations, IF these dogs are unhealthy what will happen with the breed in the future than?? Here in Sweden people are more hysterical about or MH test/mental description, and can't use dogs if the dont have the crosses in the right place. I will not test my dogs for MDR1, because I don't think that it's nessesary. And CEA? I got a dog that was CEA-free in Germany, but in Sweden she had crd... so test everything, but can you trust all tests?

Jack Mack: I posted this topic as an information what had happened in Germany at that time. I also posted what became of it. I never attacked anybody because of his or her aim in breeding. How good that finally all problems that can occur in our breed can be hung up on MDR1........ And the small gene pole - was it better before we knew about MDR1 ????

nuedeli: How good that finally all problems that can occur in our breed can be hung up on MDR1........ Very true - to spread out rumours about bad health of MDR1 negative dogs or their offspring seems to be the only attitude of some breeders to react to a GENETIC DEFECT - how sad ! And the small gene pole - was it better before we knew about MDR1 ???? The arguing with the small gene pool is absolutely ridiculous, as long as there is no limitation of matings for ALL studdogs. The so called "Matador breeding", the breeding always with the same Champion-dogs, was very usual before we knew about MDR1 and this presumably will not change, as long as beauty but not health is the most important reason at choosing a stud dog. Nuedeli



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