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Jack Mack: I do not know if this is the right place for this but it concerns very much breeding of all Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs in my country. VDH in Germany has now banned any breedings that can produce MDR1 affected puppies.

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MARGARET: This is the article which was in the Round-Up http://www.scottishcollieclub.co.uk/MDR1%20The%20Silent%20Killer.htm

MARGARET: I understand we can all do the health checks as we want healthy collies, but I am with Sharon on this..MDR1 does not kill if we avoid drugs, what our dogs are tested on is fine for our information as to matings etc but there are other health issues more serious and give far more stress to the dog, like bad hips..

Lisa: What an interesting article, there are definitely thing sto consider. For me as well information and general testing (and publication of the results) is the most important thing to do at the moment. All these health issues take time to be erased from the breed, and if one tries to do it rash there might be other, more serious problems, coming up in the process...

termite: i can't understand the text, because of my english-skills, but i understand the title, and i laugh...MDR1 is not a killer, my god. i don't like people who broadcast panic, and this title seems so...with MDR -/- the dog can live very well, but not with bad hips, bad ellbows or diseased eyes.

Lisa: I only found the answer by Sharon Vanderlip later and it is good to know that most of the suggestions from the round-up article seem to be wrong. It might be interesting to translate both articls, because they sum up quite well what misunderstanding there are currently in Germany and other european countries... so maybe if I have some free time, I will try to translate the articles...

termite: it would be great and very nice, lisa

Lisa: I will try to find the time this week - or the weekend at least... I'll let you know ;-)

termite: ja, mach dir bitte keinen stress! es eilt ja nicht, das thema wird noch sehr lange aktuell sein...

Jack Mack: Many many years ago there was a great uproar, at least in Europe, when breeders were asked to test their dogs for CEA and now it is next to hip scoring one of the most important things to do! No dog ever died from CEA and hip displacia is very very seldom in collies. If we do not start to care now that we know how to handle MDR1 how will our predecessors think about us? And don't assert that we do not care about any other problems too, may it be health or standard, don't call us thoughtless breeders. /Gudrun

margaret: I would disagree that HD is VERY VERY seldom in Collies

Dianne: I read the figure of 5% quoted for the number of collies affected by HD. That sounds not bad at all, but if you reduce it to one dog in twenty, then it sounds quite a high number after all. But who makes the statistics - how do they obtain them? We need to know how accurate such statistics are. I recently had a lady call me in great distress as her very young collie had been diagnosed by her vet as having severe HD needing immediate operation at great cost. I advised her to see another vet before going in for an operation. I believe she is reporting to the technical advisor of our French collie club, and have had no further news so far. I hate to say it, and do believe that most vets are honest, but I have also read about vets who create work for themselves.

Jack Mack: Dianne, maybe this 5% means all collies? From what I was able to research in statistics of different kennel clubs that provide this possibility and if you count our HD B(1) quoted as "free" in some other countries it should be less than 1% in smooths. Our kennel clubs in Germany were even offered by VDH to think about ceasing the obligatory hipscreening of collies for registration for breeding. Also all our american imports were free from hip displacia, had even excellent hips, although opponents were afraid there would be bad results because in America they do not test frequently. /Gudrun

Funny: After 5 years MDR1 terror one can say this don't have to themselves everything confirm. The -/- collies are still healthy as a +/+ And the VDH's decision has lifted, you forget to say here! So dangerously as you have thought, is MDR1 not and you have told it free of charge all world. It looks in such a way, as if you had expected a sales advantage. Don't worry, because there are still normal breeders in Germany who see this senseless subject realistic. I'm breeder since 7 years ago and never died a collie out of my breeding with MDR1-gene, also not in the last 5 years where one has invented MDR1. Today vets are cleared up very much and not silly. They know that one must give collie's other Meds! Also cats, rabbits ... But this: Our old dog Flash, born in 1999 is MDR1 -/- and was poisons at the age of 9 month - with a silly deworming for horses, also with ivermectins. And he still lives! He was treated medically and now he is 11 years and still healthy, always running and playing! I ask still myself: what the hell is going on with you over since 5 years to spread this spiritual waste ? Sorry all, I had to let it out!

Lisa: Maybe I may say that it is not the best place to let those feeling loose in a public Forum. Of course one may not forget to think about the other important health issues in Collies, but I do not have the feeling that Gudrun is focused only on this one topic, as she also uses +/- dogs in her breeding programme, and if I am informed correctly also -/- from time to time. As long as there are no severe problems introduced or pushed forward, it is her business how she handles the health testings of her dogs. And as all her dogs are tested for Hips and Eyes as well, there are only very few breeders who do that much testing (in public). For me personally, the eyes wuld be more important, but this is a priority every breeder has to set for him- or herself. I do not want to interfere in the highly complicated structures of your german breed clubs and politics ( I am glad that in Austria there is a good relationship to the club and members in general), but accusations of other breeders will not be of any help. I am sure of that.

Lisa: PS.: I have translated the Round-Up article to German now (with permission of Angela Harvey) and will soon try to translate the vanderlip-reaction as well (it is a bit longer ) so just in case one of the Germans is interested in the translatetd versions... in german: Ich habe den Artikel aus dem Round-Up Magazin zum Thema MDR1 übersetzt und kann ihn gerne weiterleiten, wenn ihn jemand auf deutsch lesen möchte. Auch die Reaktion von Dr. Vanderlip möchte ich demnächst übersetzen, das wird aber wegen der Länge und bedeutend fachlicheren Sprache etwas mehr Zeit in Anspruch nehmen. Wenn jemand Interesse hat an den deutschen Versionen, sagt mir einfach Bescheid

Funny: Hi Lisa, yes my thread is afflicted with emotions and this have a reason: In Germany and now in Europe the theme MDR1 is trading to much and it is too high played. In German breeding (and maybe not only in Germany) begins bad series with very bad and sad mistakes in our breed. Nobody talk about that - the result of breeding with only one aim: MDR1 - leads from a formerly healthy breed to an ill one. I hope that my thread is a provocation for other breeder and it begins a discussion with the subject. Now we have 5 years experience with MDR1-breeding here and by now we should see results: illness like epilepsy, heart mistakes, Kryptorchismus, ... What have we won? We must begin at the beginning constantly again. We exclude good dogs from the breeding and now (German) breeder use just a few males. Can this be good? I put these question to people with more than 10 years experience in breeding. By the way: google translate the article in your home language here: http://translate.google.de/# Above I forgot it: thank you for your attention and regards!

Mabinogion: Funny hai Funny that is were we are affraid to ,that will happend ,when you use so may times the same males ! you get many other ilness ,what really is worse! luckely here in nederland we dont have that rule and the collieclub things olso that is it not wise to do what they doing germany right now! other things are more important !

Dianne: Hi Gudrun and everyone - we are discussing very knotty problems here and we have people commenting from diametrically opposed points of view. If we start from the premise that everyone is free to do what their conscience dictates and that it doesn't concern other breeders - that is as long as no official body starts making tests obligatory, or decreeing that no MDR1 -/- dogs may be produced. So should tests be obligatory or not? Personally, I have mixed reactions. In the case of CEA, the French collie club no longer demands tests. I shall be interested to see the state of eyes in ten years time. In the case of hips - there has been a hint that pulling a young dogs legs into full and unnatural extension can do harm. Plus the danger to MDR affected and even +/- dogs of the anaesthetic used. For MDR testing - the test does no harm and at least future owners know where they stand. Funny says vets in Germany know about MDR sensitivity and take care - I wish French vets were as well informed. So - to test or not to test - I am not the expert - I have just asked the question. One last thing - the Smooth Collie Club of Great Britain has now begun to encourage breeders to test for MDR. Click on health and well-being then on MDR. http://www.smoothcollieclub.com Dianne PS the dog mentioned in my previous post was a rough - sorry -

Dianne: Here is a very rational response to the article in Roundup http://www.sharonvanderlip.com/pdfs/Response_mdr1Article.pdf Good reading Dianne

Dianne: Sorry Alertness - alert as usual - I see you have already posted the response to the Roundup article - well a repeat won't do any harm.

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