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Rough to smooth mating -necessity or not?
Dianne: I am proposing a new topic - not as one of my firmly held beliefs, but as something I toy with as an idea and I would like to share this subject to hear your ideas. This topic is the result of a lot of reading I have done on this forum and my reactions to various statements of ideas and beliefs I have seen here. So here goes. Given that all herding dogs in the British Isles probably had a common ancestor, these dogs were developed in different ways with different talents and various coats to deal with the climatic and working conditions of the dogs in question. A shepherd dog working on mountains might need some protective coat to protect him from gorse, heather and any other brambles or thorny bushes found there. The coat could not be too heavy because it would be weighed down by ice and snow. A drover's dog, working more in fields and on the roads, would not need this protective coat, but would none-the-less, need a warm undercoat against the cold. Here is the scene set for the rough shepherd's dog and the smooth drover's dog. The famous engraving by Bewick in his 1790 book, "A General History of Quadrupeds", of a smooth docked dog called a cur dog or collie doesn't need any introduction to you.So we can say that the smooth collie as a type of dog existed long before show dogs were developed and roughs were mixed with smooths to give the smooths pedigrees. (As they were introduced to showing slightly earlier, the roughs already benefited from a few generations of pedigree) So, if we are face with two already established and morphologically similar breeds (who, because of showing, share an almost identical standard and can be considered as two branches of a similar type of dog), why hanker after breeding rough to smooth again? As we distance ourselves from rough to smooth mating, perhaps the original smooth is re-emerging - do we want to lose this dog again? PS -There have been no wolves in England since the 12th century and none in Scotland since they were hunted to extinction in the late 1700s, so the collie has had no need of a vocation as a "wolf dog" for quite some time, hence, some people say, his gentler nature.
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Alertness: Very interesting topic Dianne. If we take your excellent summary as the starting point for discussion I'd say there isn't any need for breeding smooths to roughs again as long as we're happy with the way the smooth has kept its physical and mental traits and want to keep it that way. On the other hand I think there are certain other concerns to take into consideration, and that is the breed's genetic variation. For a breed to survive staying healthy for any length of time it requires a minimum of genes in circulation within the breed. If the gene pool narrows too much there will invariably be problems. If a geneticist was to look closely at the smooth population and study how many males and females were put to reproductive use I think they might lift a warning finger: Generally breeders are not good at making sure we preserve the whole breadth of the gene pool, instead in every generation certain few males are more popular than others effectively causing a lot of other males to never be used that carry another set of genes; genes that will then be lost in the next generation, and thus invariably narrowing the gene pool. Research has shown this to happen in the rough population in England, so much as to 90% of the gene material to have been lost in the last thirty/fourty years or so. Do we have any reason to believe it is any better in the smooth population? If this type of breeding (only selecting a few winning studs/dams for breeding) goes on for much longer we will have no option but to outcross to rough collies (either directly to roughs or indirectly by using smooths from countries where rough/smooth crossings are allowed). I think there is a very good reason why the country of origin allowed rough/smooth matings to take place at intervals throughout the breed's history: The smooth collie would otherwise not have survived with its tiny gene pool. I believe this has not changed today: Yes, the smooth population has grown throughout Europe, but sheer numbers alone is not enough when these smooths all carry the same genes; most European smooths are very heavily related to eachother. Berit
myrnash: I agree with Berit. In fact, the smooth doesn't have much to gain from the roughs, overall the smooths are much better in construction, movement, and even temperament; the real advantage for smooths of breeding smooths to roughs at times is to increase the gene pool. Myrna
Dianne: Thanks, Alertness, for your very rational and concerned reply. You are so right to point out the problems of our restrained gene pool. We are limited by several factors - our desire to produce dogs as close to the standard as possible and our concerns in trying to eliminate certain genetic defects such as CEA and MDR/1. If we try to keep these factors juggling in the air and in balance all at the same time, then we are really going to end up with an extremely limited gene pool. I asked if we should let the smooth collie emerge as the dog it was at its beginnings before becoming a show dog. Your answer is clear that after the second world war, there were so few smooths left, that rough to smooth mating was begun again to increase the gene pool. But, we are gradually reducing the gene pool again, eliminating rough genes, by not mating rough factored smooth to rough factored smooth in order not to produce rough smooths which for the most part can only be sold as pets and not used for reproduction. Many among us love these dogs. Jack Mack's recently put up a photo of a particularly beautiful example from her breeding which will be used for mating with rough dogs in Italy. I have to salute the courage of one of my French co-breeders who bred two smooth dogs who were pretty sure to produce rough smooths. And the interesting thing is that there is a demand for these dogs. The breeder will not have much difficulty placing her rough smooths, but they will be sold as pets only. She is well-placed to find homes for her rough smooth puppies because she is predominently a rough breeder and is having her first adventure with a smooth litter. People sometimes ask rough breeders for an "old fashioned smooth" and a rough smooth certainly fits this bill. Another different problem lies in the fact that in certain countries, breeders sell puppies with the stipulation that they are only for pets and they are not to be bred from. This is strange, because we know that a fairly ordinary dog or bitch can produce an outstanding litter, but we are limiting the gene pool by this policy too. I can sum up so far by saying that we are our own worst enemies and that the solution to our problem of the limited gene pool lies in our own hands - we should broaden our outlook and use more of the dogs available to us before resorting to mating with rough collies. If we did allow rough to smooth mating, many people on this forum would much prefer to mate with the "old fahioned" type of rough - and where does that exist? In rough smooth collies!!! At least if we could use them for breeding the rough blood inherent in the smooth would not be lost. Finally, would a rough smooth mating to smooth be best with a pure for smooth? Dianne A selection of collies
Spiritwind: Maybe its because I am far far far away from you all.. but I really do not understand what you are talking about.... Just a couple questions.. what is a rough smooth collie? I'm assuming you mean a rough factored smooth??? also what is an old fashioned smooth??? Any pictures?? Anyone who has imported a Rough Collie from the US or Canada more than likely has a rough collie with smooth blood behind it... same for anyone who has imported a smooth.. there is guaranteed rough dogs behind it. Dianne wrote: Another different problem lies in the fact that in certain countries, breeders sell puppies with the stipulation that they are only for pets and they are not to be bred from. This is strange, because we know that a fairly ordinary dog or bitch can produce an outstanding litter, but we are limiting the gene pool by this policy too. I do this... I'm sorry if someone comes to me looking for just a family pet, they are not allowed to breed the dog. I'm not going to let some person who has NO idea what they are doing, no idea what a show quality collie looks like, take a well bred dog, that I bred, and breed it to some ugly pet quality collie that lives down the road from him, just so they can have puppies. If they aren't going to show, then they do not need to breed. Obviously not all champions should be bred, and not all breeding dogs finish their championship, However if your goal is to just buy a family pet that they can breed in the future.. its not going to happen. Not from me anyway. I just had a guy contact me yesterday looking for a rough sable male mainly for a family pet... but he said he would possibly like to breed him in the future... but really had no interest in showing. I turned him down, he is not going to get a puppy from me for that purpose. Yes, I agree sometimes a fairly common, ordinary dog or bitch can produce very nicely, however the reason I do this has nothing to do with the dog its self... it has to do with the people. I'm not going to let someone who doesn't know the collie breed standard, doesn't know about health issues to be tested for, someone that doesn't have the slightest idea what goes on at a dog show and some one that just wants to breed their pet to have some puppies to sell... I'm not going to allow someone like this to take one of my dogs that I've spent several years breeding to produce beautiful healthy dogs... take one of my dogs and ruin the work I have done by breeding it to a less than quality bitch and then selling the puppies to more people who will do the same... I have no desire to let my dogs or their offspring get into the hands of a back-yard breeder..
Glenmorangie: Spiritwind wrote: what is a rough smooth collie? I'm assuming you mean a rough factored smooth??? No, Spiritwind. Dianne meant "roughs born from two rough factored smooths". Spiritwind wrote: also what is an old fashioned smooth??? She also certainly meant "old fashion roughs"..... in regard to the European "modern rough" type that you can see almost everywhere. --------- I believe that your mind is rather noble concerning pets collies and show collies. On the other hand, I also believe that you may be mistrusted by someone who wants a dog "for shows" and finally will never show that dog, let alone will never breed him, just because this person wants a very beautiful specimen of the breed as pet !!! What will you do then ? Isn't it everyone's right to want and to get a well standarded dog only to love ?... -------- Spiritwind wrote: Maybe its because I am far far far away from you all.. but I really do not understand what you are talking about.... You are answering yourself !!! Because American Collie breeders always have interbred roughs with smooths, you can not understand our concern about the loose of our smooth collie gene pool while we are obliged to breed them separately since 1993. Maybe you have a wider open mind than us in breeding with a large variety of collies, in any colours and coat. Please, just wonder how you should manage your breeding program if you were living in Europe Best regards, Françoise
Glenmorangie: Dianne wrote: many people on this forum would much prefer to mate with the "old fahioned" type of rough - and where does that exist? In Great-Britain No, I am not laughing. Fortunately for the Rough Collie, it still exist few (old) breeders who have kept it in the Standard : Corydon, Brooklynson, Ingledene.... and some younger like Wicani, Ladnar..... Brooklynson upset a certain French "elite" two years ago at Cruft's when Ch. Brooklynson From Rio won the CC : this dog is sired by the Brasilian sable-white Ch. Lakefield Love Is In The Air and the mother is from Corydon and Jefsfire lines : http://www.collie-online.com/pedigree/genealogie.php?parametre=Brooklynson%20From%20Rio In the same vein, Ch. Brooklynson De Carvalho is living in Germany. Also in Italy with Maria-Teresa Garabelli's Cambiano rough Collies. Currently, sable-white Ch. Xtraordinario di Cambiano is one of these dogs that I really would love to have at home Seriously, where is the interest for the (pure) Smooth to mate it with roughs from smooth since they have exactly the same origins ? The interest for the Smooth is in breeding it with the True Type Rough Collie in order to bring back 50% of fresh new blood in the puppies. But WARNING : it does not matter to do anything in the simple goal of new blood. Carefully choosing the bloodline and the top quality sires is most importance. The interests for the Rough is using roughs from Smooths in order to bring back 50% of fresh new blood in the puppies AND to give back the Rough the look that many people want because it is the only one which fit to their (our) mind. But finally, why to discuss about that topic since the country of origin and others do not want to hear of another (necessary) interbreeding program It seems that breed clubs and national kennel clubs are definitely close-minded about the Collie survival. Best regards, Françoise
Spiritwind: Glenmorangie wrote: No, Spiritwind. Dianne meant "roughs born from two rough factored smooths". Ok.. thanks. I really wasn't sure what she was talking about. Haha.. I just call roughs from 2 smooth parents.... Roughs, because that's what they are lol Glenmorangie wrote: She also certainly meant "old fashion roughs"..... in regard to the European "modern rough" type that you can see almost everywhere. Ok.. I understand this now. Yes, I've seen pictures of the two types of European roughs. Glenmorangie wrote: I believe that your mind is rather noble concerning pets collies and show collies. On the other hand, I also believe that you may be mistrusted by someone who wants a dog "for shows" and finally will never show that dog, let alone will never breed him, just because this person wants a very beautiful specimen of the breed as pet !!! What will you do then ? Isn't it everyone's right to want and to get a well standarded dog only to love ?... Oh.. I have sold plenty of show quality dogs to people as pets. I have no problem selling show dogs as pets. I understand someone wanting a well bred pet, however if they go to pet homes, they are not allowed to be bred. The majority of the dogs I sell go to pet homes, with a select few that I don't keep going to show homes, usually to breeders I know. I have on occasion sold a show prospect puppy to a pet home on co-ownership because they weren't sure if they really wanted to show.. and being on co-ownership I would have say on whether the dog was bred or not. I have also sold dogs with a contractual agreement stating the dog had to have a minimum number of points towards his championship title before it could be bred. I won't, however sell a puppy to someone who just wants a family pet they can breed. If you don't go to dog shows, if you don't study the breed and learn what is correct and what is not... more than likely when it comes time to breed that dog, that person is going to go find the first collie available to breed to their dog, just to have puppies, and more than likely the collie they found to breed to theirs is going to be a badly bred pet that is no where near the breed standard. Glenmorangie wrote: You are answering yourself !!! Because American Collie breeders always have interbred roughs with smooths, you can not understand our concern about the loose of our smooth collie gene pool while we are obliged to breed them separately since 1993. Maybe you have a wider open mind than us in breeding with a large variety of collies, in any colours and coat. Please, just wonder how you should manage your breeding program if you were living in Europe Oh, I have no idea how I could do it! The majority of my litters are from rough x smooth breedings (I have a Rough x Smooth litter due Sept 12th).... and I have bred blue merle x sable several times.. and have kept sables from those breedings. Actually the bitch I have that is due to have a litter in September is a sable bitch from a blue x sable breeding. I've done a couple rough x rough breedings.. and I have done one smooth x smooth breeding, but I really prefer to do rough x smooth! Here is my litter from last year And this is the bitch I kept from that litter pictured above Ptd. Spiritwind Galway Girl Glenmorangie wrote: Brooklynson upset a certain French "elite" two years ago at Cruft's when Ch. Brooklynson From Rio won the CC : this dog is sired by the Brasilian sable-white Ch. Lakefield Love Is In The Air and the mother is from Corydon and Jefsfire lines : http://www.collie-online.com/pedigree/genealogie.php?parametre=Brooklynson%20From%20Rio I've seen pictures of this dog, CH Brooklynson From Rio, and this is a very nice dog! I actually really like him!
Glenmorangie: Spiritwind wrote: Haha.. I just call roughs from 2 smooth parents.... Roughs, because that's what they are lol Right ! So they are !!! But once again, if it is quite natural for you to call a Rough... a Rough, it is totally different here then we must precise "Rough from Smooths" to make sure we are speaking about the "Rough from Smooths" and not about the "Rough"...... Crazy, isn't it ? Spiritwind wrote: and I have bred blue merle x sable several times.. In Europe, most of the countries (France for example) still have the chance to breed any colour together BUT NOT ROUGHS X SMOOTHS Spiritwind wrote: Here is my litter from last year I really like the colour of the blue in the midle, light and "flashy" I hope this puppy kept this quality with age..... And I really love the "big" first sable, he seems to be so present and he holds his teat so firmly For sure, he will never give his place even for gold Spiritwind wrote: And this is the bitch I kept from that litter pictured above Pretty, pretty lady Congratulations and good luck for the future Best regards, Françoise
Dianne: Hi Françoise - thanks for correcting my mistake - of course I meant old-fashioned rough. Writing late at night, my old brain gets tired and in spite of copy-reading my post several times, I did not pick up my mistake!! Also, I started by writing one thing and changed it completely because as I wrote, I saw I was changing my mind and going elsewhere with my reasoning. Yes, it's difficult for Spiritwind to understand where we are coming from as they are free to breed as they wish in the USA. The link below is where the rough smooth collie from a smooth /smooth mating can be seen. She has been exported to Italy registered as a rough collie and can be used for breeding with rough collies. This is a great triumph for Jack Mack's that this bitch can be used for breeding in Italy, whereas in Germany, her country of origin, breeding from her would not be allowed. How long before this loophole is closed? Congrats to her new owner with the courage to be different. Why are "the powers that be" so ignorant about genetics ( a rough from a smooth/smooth mating being genetically a rough) and so scared of rough smooths? http://smoothcollie.forum24.ru/?1-3-0-00000012-000-20-0 I am pretty sure this bitch is of pure American descent, but can't find the records on JM's web page - if JM could give us the pedigree of this girl it would be useful.Thanks, Dianne I also exported a rough smooth from a smooth /smooth mating from France with a rough birth certificate thanks to help from JM and to our collie club which permitted the puppy to have a rough certificate. unfortunately the new owner was not interested in breeding - she uses the dog for agility and has trained him as a social dog. I believe we can no longer register rough smooths as roughs here, but am investigating this. Congrats to Spiritwind for her super litter.
Dianne: This engraving is by Sydenham Edwards 1768-1819. It was created for the Cynographica Britannica, an encyclopedia of British dog breeds which was never, in fact, finished. http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/SydenhamEdwards/Edwards.html For Bewick: http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/Bewick/Bewick.html For Caius: http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/Caius/Caius.html
Jack Mack: Dianne, I must correct one thing, this sable was not the bitch that went to Italy, that one was a tri sister of her. The sable stayed in Germany with a rough collie breeder and since the official of the stud register promised me (and did it for the bitch in Italy) to register her as rough, we believed it would be all ok. But now our club management is in a huge outburst because he did something he should not have done and they kicked him out of the ??? well, he is not allowed to vote any more in the gremium that reigns the club he now gets payed to do the stud register as he is told to do!! We are again placing a petition to go back to the former habit of registering roughs from smooth x smooth as roughs. This was stopped by our club in 2003 after the stud book was seperated for roughs and smooths. Our breeding rules still allow rough to smooth matings
Jack Mack: upps, wrong button........ rough to smooth matings if allowed from the club's breeding official. How would they proceed in those cases???? Yes, my "half 'n' half" litter was from american parents, I expected to have rough puppies but not as many , from the eight puppies I had 4 roughs, 3 rough-factored smooths and 1 pure for smooth. I now used the same male again with a pure for smooth bitch and had a nice smooth litter, for now I have not yet tested them who is rough factored. But this for me is secondary and I would always do it again it is only so frustrating if rough breeders like what you do and they can not use the roughs. On my homepage one can find all information to the litters by starting from the bitches, from there you can go to the litters of them. Spiritwind, one thing I want to aks: I had an american breeder interested in one of the rough puppies but when I told her the price I get for a pet puppy she was astonished and lost interest and she was shocked about the price I had payed for the mother of the puppies. Are the prices in America so different ??? In our breed club all smooths go for about the same price.
Spiritwind: Jack Mack wrote: Spiritwind, one thing I want to aks: I had an american breeder interested in one of the rough puppies but when I told her the price I get for a pet puppy she was astonished and lost interest and she was shocked about the price I had payed for the mother of the puppies. Are the prices in America so different ??? In our breed club all smooths go for about the same price. Jack Mack, the person interested was in fact a breeder?? I'm really kind of interested in who the person was, but I understand not wanting to post someones name here. The reason I ask is.... in the US (and Canada)... maybe you also have them in Europe, but we have REAL breeders... who breed for health, structure, temperament and soundness. The breeders that show their dogs, and health test their dogs. Dogs from these breeders can be rather expensive. Then we have "Back-yard" breeders. Breeders who buy the first collie they can for the cheapest they can, usually from another bad breeder... whether its show quality or not... they breed it to the first collie they find just to produce puppies to sell. Most often they don't have health tests, but sometimes these "breeders" do eye checks. Sometimes these people will have a kennel, but most of the time they own 2-3 maybe 4 dogs that they breed, and sell for very cheap. My very first collie, a rough male, was purchased for me by my grandparents. He came from one of these breeders, he didn't even have his eyes checked. He was $250. USD. VERY VERY cheap. I'm just curious as to whether this person was a real show breeder... or a back-yard breeder, who thinks they breed show quality dogs... when in reality they are far from it!.. This is the reason, when I sell a puppy to a pet home... whether the puppy is show quality or not, its not allowed to be bred. I don't want it or its offspring falling into the hands of these back-yard breeders. So yes, in the US and Canada there is a HUGE range of prices. I know one breeder who sell both show and pet puppies for $600. I know another breeder who sells pet puppies for $800... and show puppies start at $1000-$1200 USD. Show quality adults are even more. Because of the backyard breeders who sell their dogs for $200-$300 many people don't understand why reputable breeders sell their dogs for so much more. But Back-yard breeders just breed two dogs together to produce puppies. They don't research health, or the pedigrees... most don't even do eye checks or give a health guarantee. You get that and more from a reputable breeder. However I sold a Rough adult male to Europe about 1 1/2 yrs ago.. and the lady who got the dog at first was really surprised by my price, she said it was higher than she expected. Then because he was an adult, and needed a 500 vari kennel to ship it, it was VERY expensive to ship him over seas!
Jack Mack: Spiritwind - she was a well know breeder, maybe not up to date but earlier.........so no name here. And I payed a lot more for my two bitches, the first one I bought as a puppy (for a heck lot more money than you mentioned) but then her breeder would not want to let her go and we compromised upon her keeping and showing her for a 1 year. Then I picked up an American Champion who won an Award of Merit on the National 2004 and she was shown in Europe and qualified for Crufts the year after, so she was worth it. By the way, she is the mother of my half 'n' half litter Ok, she is Am./Swiss/German and International Champion Kimegan Cozy at Jack Mack My latest import, she was already 6 years old when I saw her and she caught my eye right away, she really took my breath away even at that age! She gave birth to 14 puppies at my home, I was able to raise 11 (9 boys, 2 girls). She gained her ROM last year and was nr. 1 brood bitch (rough and smooth). And she is Am.Champion Byluc's Drama Queen ROM I am so happy and proud to have them
Spiritwind: I will say when American/Canadian breeders sell dogs overseas they tend to sell them for more than they would to breeders in North America. When I sell show prospect puppies I usually sell them on co-ownership with the agreement that we either split a litter from the bitch.... or I get the bitch back for a litter at some point, so the purchase price is less because I would get a litter back from the bitch as well.. or if its a male I keep stud rights to the dog for any bitch I lease, own or co-own. When they sell them overseas they tend to be more expensive because typically we can't get them back for litters or split litters out of them.... or at least you can't do that as easily. I just got a rough blue bitch that I bred, but sold on co-ownership. I just got her back a few weeks ago for a litter.. and she'll be bred this fall. Now if I sold a show puppy bitch overseas, it would be more than $1200 because the likely hood of me getting her back for a litter would be slim. The male I sold to Europe last year I sold for MUCH MUCH more than that, and he really was the pick male from that litter! I had to think long and hard before I finally decided to sell him. I also wanted to add that the prices I posted above, the breeders I know, the the prices above are just the starting price for a puppy, they can go up or even down depending on the terms and agreement the dogs are sold on. A mature adult, or proven stud dog, or a proven bitch... a finished champion... etc.. costs of these dogs will be higher..
Spiritwind: Glenmorangie wrote: I really like the colour of the blue in the midle, light and "flashy" I hope this puppy kept this quality with age..... And I really love the "big" first sable, he seems to be so present and he holds his teat so firmly For sure, he will never give his place even for gold The blue in the middle kept that nice clear blue coloring. I LOVE the coloring, I still have her actually, but I think she may be going to a pet home (non-breeding).... I just don't feel she has as good of body and structure as her littermates. Beautiful color and very pretty head and expression though!... I can't remember which puppy that first sable was. There was only one male in the litter, and he was sable.. and 2 sable bitches, but one of the bitches was VERY fat and large... so thats either the male or the large sable bitch, they had the same exact markings so I can't remember which one that was lol.... Bree the bitch I kept was the smaller sable bitch... Bree ended up probably about the size of a large European bred bitch (maybe just under 22 inches)..... where Paris, the mother is almost 24" tall.... or very close to 24 inches.
Spiritwind: Found this pic... always loved it. This is Aiden (Left) and Andy (right), they are litter brothers. Andy is the one that I sold to Europe. This picture was taken at around 14 months of age, a few months before he left.
Dianne: Hi Jack Mack - I am getting more and more concerned about the fate of the rough smooth in Europe. Some years back, I was allowed to register such a dog as rough and he was exported to Switzerland. You know about this as you helped me find the new puppy owner. Now there are new terms for such dogs and no-one seems to understand what these terms mean, but most people seem to think that rough smooths cannot be confirmed as pedigree dogs or used in breeding. I am trying to find the relevant information. Glenmorangie has already spoken about this and it would be great if she would explain again where she found the information and what it really means. Some people have interpreted the ruling differently. What seems to be needed is a Europe-wide petition to decide the fate of the rough smooth. As he will breed true for rough, there doesn't seem to be any valid reason for excluding him from breeding. Myrnash in Israel has bred with rough smooths to great effect. I have found something very interesting in "Smooth Collie Pedigrees - a selection 1900 to 2004" produced by the Smooth Collie Club of Great Britain: Quote: While I appreciate that a single ancestor appearing in the distant past would have virtually no influence on descendants decades later, I find it interesting to realise that Rough collies born in Smooth litters bred on and played a part in shaping both breeds in a way that, due to current legislation, they cannot do today.Brenda Kennedy with special thanks to Dareen Bridge. This means that in the past, rough smooths were used in breeding and one begins to wonder what all the fuss is about!!!! Dianne
Spiritwind: Dianne wrote: This means that in the past, rough smooths were used in breeding and one begins to wonder what all the fuss is about!!!! I think its pretty obvious at one point roughs from smooth parents were used for breeding in Europe, since up until, when was it? the early 90's (correct me if I'm wrong) you could still breed rough x smooth. Even when the two varieties were more similar than they are today, in Europe... I'll have to look for the site I found it on.. it was one of the collie breed history pages I read, but it states on there that there are NO rough collies, in which smooth collies do not appear in the pedigrees.. you just have to go back in the pedigree far enough.
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